Always wondered this;

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Very cool question and thought, but the sun would never just "disappear". Even if the result was the sun "disappearing" into a supernova explosion, the gravity loss would be gradual, just as stars do not instantaneously consume themselves.
That's why they call this a thought problem. It doesn't have to be based on reality.

edit:
To those saying gravity travels at the speed of light; PROVE IT..."
I'm not trying to prove it. I'm going by our current understanding which is subject to change if you are able to prove it wrong.
If gravitation can move instantaneous, than information can move faster than light. This could be an avenue to explore for FTL communication.
 

DonPepe

Active Member
The question is currently a fallacy in our understanding of physics, we have no concept of the effects of such an event as our model of quantum physics does not account for the disappearance of mass (at least not at any level that could induce a significant gravitational field). With this said we can only imagine the effects of the sun quickly moving away from us or of the sun exploding which would not immediately alter our perception of its mass as a single point of gravity. Quiet quickly tho we would be consumed by the resulting supernova, the period of time between the light from the explosion arriving and the resulting expansion of mass, that would lead to the dispersion of a central mass for our solar system would very small if not non existent.

In some circumstances it could even be reversed as noted in the crab nebula when matter has been recorded moving faster then the speed of light as a result of a supernova, at which point we would literally be destroyed before we knew it.

However, in the case of our sun this should not be the case as our sun lacks the mass to go supernova in the first place much less propel matter at supersolar speeds. So in that infinitesimal moment between the light going out and the blast ripping the earth apart as the sun is destroyed (rather than going supernova) there could possibly be a moment when we could decide if the magnetic field being emitted by the concentrated mass of the sun disappeared before the light went out or the other way around.

but again to the initial question, it will currently be impossible to formulate any answer that could be accurate given we lack the proper models, language, or principles to define such an event much less convey it to another person via text.

It is also interesting to note that in Einstine's theory of relativity, which is currently used in our understanding of celestial mechanics, G is defined using c or the speed of light. not sure what effects this could have on any hypothesis that might exist outside our current understanding.

I am currently looking for any information about the maximum rate of change of a magnetic field.

and this is the best i have come up with

Dr. Jesse L. Greenstein of the California Institute of Technology wrote:
The detection of gravitational waves bears directly on the question of whether there is any such thing as a "gravitational field," which can act as an independent entity. … this fundamental field hypothesis has been generally accepted without observational support. Such credulity among scientists occurs only in relation to the deepest and most fundamental hypotheses for which they lack the facility to think differently in a comparably detailed and consistent way. In the nineteenth century a similar attitude led to a general acceptance of the ether ….[SUP][9][/SUP]
Most scientists believe that the gravitational field and its gravitational waves are the physical interpretations of Einstein's equations of general relativity.
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Great answers guys....

I've always wondered what would happen, I always assumed we would just continue in our orbit around the 'non-sun' until 8:20 passed at which time the light would appear to vanish and we would fly off of our normal orbit from around the sun.
 

DonPepe

Active Member
personally i imagine if it instantly just winked out of existence we would instantly lose orbit and begin on a relatively straight trajectory until we are captured by another star or collide with something, of course we would all have died a short time after we stopped receiving energy from the sun and long before either. as I stated above i have no evidence or reasoning for thinking this but it is what i "feel" would happen.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Dr. Jesse L. Greenstein of the California Institute of Technology wrote:
The detection of gravitational waves bears directly on the question of whether there is any such thing as a "gravitational field," which can act as an independent entity. … this fundamental field hypothesis has been generally accepted without observational support. Such credulity among scientists occurs only in relation to the deepest and most fundamental hypotheses for which they lack the facility to think differently in a comparably detailed and consistent way. In the nineteenth century a similar attitude led to a general acceptance of the ether ….[SUP][9][/SUP]
Most scientists believe that the gravitational field and its gravitational waves are the physical interpretations of Einstein's equations of general relativity.
It's bad form to quote something without a link.

The opportunity to do this arose in September 2002, when Jupiter passed in front of a quasar that emits bright radio waves. Fomalont and Kopeikin combined observations from a series of radio telescopes across the Earth to measure the apparent change in the quasar's position as the gravitational field of Jupiter bent the passing radio waves.From that they worked out that gravity does move at the same speed as light. Their actual figure was 0.95 times light speed, but with a large error margin of plus or minus 0.25.
Their result, announced on Tuesday at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society meeting in Seattle, should help narrow down the possible number of extra dimensions and their sizes.
But experts say the indirect evidence that gravity propagates at the speed of light was already overwhelming. "It would be revolutionary if gravity were measured not to propagate at the speed of light - we were virtually certain that it must," says Lawrence Krauss of Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3232-first-speed-of-gravity-measurement-revealed.html
http://www.nrao.edu/pr/2003/gravity/


There are many problems with the idea that gravitation is instant. This is counter to everything we understand about physics to date. Not saying it couldn't be, but it really doesn't seem to fit into any current models.
 

fb360

Active Member
That's why they call this a thought problem. It doesn't have to be based on reality.

I'm not trying to prove it. I'm going by our current understanding which is subject to change if you are able to prove it wrong.
If gravitation can move instantaneous, than information can move faster than light. This could be an avenue to explore for FTL communication.
First off I agree that it is a theoretical problem, but to simply say one way is surely the way because many also agree, is against the scientific method to begin with. You come off as I attacked you because you quoted a bunch of people telling them it ISN'T instantaneous... You were making an assumption and putting other individual's thoughts down because you and the consensus believe otherwise. Tell me who is wrong in this situation..

I don't know what the answer is, and neither does anyone else.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
First off I agree that it is a theoretical problem, but to simply say one way is surely the way because many also agree, is against the scientific method to begin with.
As I said, it's a thought problem. The scientific method doesn't come into play. I offered up a solution to the problem based on our known physics, nothing more.
You come off as I attacked you because you quoted a bunch of people telling them it ISN'T instantaneous...
Your belief that I think you attacked me is all on you. Not only did I never claim such a thing. I never even considered your post an attack.
You were making an assumption and putting other individual's thoughts down because you and the consensus believe otherwise. Tell me who is wrong in this situation..
You seem to be making all kinds of assumptions about me. Why is it that when someone corrects someone, it suddenly becomes a 'put down?'
I made no assumptions, I answered the question based on our known laws of physics. If you disagree, this is the place to present your argument. I am still going to present mine and highlight flaws in your where I see them. This is how people learn things. This is how science is done. Quit trying to make this personal.
I don't know what the answer is, and neither does anyone else.
I believe my answer is correct. You have yet to tell me why it isn't except to use the canard of lack of absolute proof. I guess any answers to other theoretical (and practical) physics problems likewise have this limitation because science doesn't ever prove anything.
 

fb360

Active Member
As I said, it's a thought problem. The scientific method doesn't come into play. I offered up a solution to the problem based on our known physics, nothing more.
Your belief that I think you attacked me is all on you. Not only did I never claim such a thing. I never even considered your post an attack.
You seem to be making all kinds of assumptions about me. Why is it that when someone corrects someone, it suddenly becomes a 'put down?'
I made no assumptions, I answered the question based on our known laws of physics. If you disagree, this is the place to present your argument. I am still going to present mine and highlight flaws in your where I see them. This is how people learn things. This is how science is done. Quit trying to make this personal.
I believe my answer is correct. You have yet to tell me why it isn't except to use the canard of lack of absolute proof. I guess any answers to other theoretical (and practical) physics problems likewise have this limitation because science doesn't ever prove anything.
Lies. Check post #8 and post #9. I can put links to them if you need that as well.



e; Highlight my flaws... LOL. I haven't even stated my "OPINION"/"GUESS" in this instance yet you are going to highlight the flaws? Let me know how that goes dude.
Also I'd like to see you prove Sir Issac Newtons belief that gravity is instantaneous to be wrong; do it ;)
 

blacksun

New Member
I have a universe, galaxy, solar system, planetary and even smaller simulator called "Universe Sandbox". I've mentioned it before on here.

When you take away the sun's gravity, in that simulator, the planets begin flying away from their orbits immediately.
 

kermit2692

Well-Known Member
ya gravity doesnt "travel" its a constant and their is no question of it it moves faster than light or will the light go away before gravity takes effect because gravity is constant
 

blacksun

New Member
Yea, the simulator changes the earth's trajectory immediately when you change the sun's mass to zero. It doesn't wait 8 minutes...but that's what it's programmed to do...hmmm...
 

aknight3

Moderator
yes i think we would still see light for a short time after the problem already happened so the average person will not know by way of not seeing the sun before they were instantly frozen
while im not sure to the answer of the this question, i can tell you if that our sun disapeared we would not instatnly freeze, we have an ozone, an atmosphere and an electromagnetic field. all of this would keep us safe and warm for at least a few days/hrs, until we were either consumed by another sun/star/planet, or collide with another sun/star/planet/comet/rock..i do know one thing though, if it ever did happen, the night sky would become very different, and maybe even amazing, until we hurled into another huge piece of rock, i would like to see that sight.
 

kermit2692

Well-Known Member
i dont agree it would happen alot faster than you think and i think that the light would still be illuminating part of the earth at least while not providing enough energy to keep the temperature up so i think things would basically deep freeze within minutes...but thats just my opinion
 

aknight3

Moderator
i dont agree it would happen alot faster than you think and i think that the light would still be illuminating part of the earth at least while not providing enough energy to keep the temperature up so i think things would basically deep freeze within minutes...but thats just my opinion
i understand your train of thought on the subject, i just think with our ozone and atmosphere along with our own human heating sources, the earths magma and a huge magnetic, molten spinning core, we would last at least 24 hrs, possibly longer. With that being said, none of this is taking into account that the fact of losing such a huge gravitational force so quickly and what it would do to the surface of the earth...if thets sun actually just 'disappeared' I think we would most likely be flung like a huge rock through space probably so fast and swift that we would become vapor within seconds along with everything else on the earths surface including water and land. I mean we are talking winds that would probably be in the 10s of thousands' of miles per hour on the surface of the earth, never mind what it would do to our oceans and continents from losing that much gravity so quickly. And then there is the moon...who knows what would happen but either way its safe to say, we wouldn't witness it....you have very good points though, i enjoy thinking about these kinds of things
 

kermit2692

Well-Known Member
see but since we are already hurling through space super fast i dont think the vanishing of the sun would speed up our velocity in any way so we will not feel speed effects i would think however you are def onto something because i still think their would be chaos if we didnt freeze quickly due to the effects of the sun and moon on tides would be like a slingshot effect id think with nothing left on the other side to keep our egg shape wobbling maybe the earth would tear itself apart in that respect..we would have some serious tsunamis and probably things we cant even think of would happen..wheres morgan freeman when you need him....
 

cannabiscultivation

Active Member
For the sun to disappear is fantasy. not possible. It can't just wink out and have no further effect on it's surroundings.
similarly, to ponder the logistics of a fantasy with a scientific method seems like expecting an awful lot.
 

gonzoman

Member
if thets sun actually just 'disappeared' I think we would most likely be flung like a huge rock through space probably so fast and swift that we would become vapor within seconds along with everything else on the earths surface including water and land. I mean we are talking winds that would probably be in the 10s of thousands' of miles per hour on the surface of the earth, never mind what it would do to our oceans and continents from losing that much gravity so quickly. And then there is the moon...
Actually, the gravitational field of the sun keeps us around by curling our trajectory but it doesn't act like some kind of brake that would prevent us from reaching extreme speeds. Let's say the earth in the gravitational field of the sun is like some kind of giant hamster in a giant friction-less wheel. If the gravitational field disappeared, we'd keep going approximatively into a straight line at constant speed until something else pretty big catches us. As far as oceans and the moon are concerned, these are our pets bound by our gravitational field, not the gravitational field of the sun, so we'll keep those around us.
 
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