alternative for base soil layer on top of super soil in container

Discussion in 'Subcool's Old School Organics' started by cookieman275, Feb 25, 2016.


    cookieman275 Member

    When filling up the container as far as I know your supposed fill it up about half way with super soil and then the other half is base soil right? This is said to increase veg times because of the lack of nutrients to some extent. So I was wondering why can't you just add like fox farm ocean Forrest or happy frogs instead of just plain base soil to decrease veg times.

    GreenSanta Well-Known Member

    you can do what you want, i like to make a weaker soil and not layer, top dress later...
    greasemonkeymann likes this.

    The303Yeti Well-Known Member

    I was just going to use to use Roots organic on top.
    bertaluchi likes this.

    bertaluchi Well-Known Member

    Thats what I use on my top layer. It works well. has enough food for your plant to get its roots down to the good stuff.

    greasemonkeymann Well-Known Member

    the concept is a flawed one, just mix a regular soil, and forget about layering.
    After transplant the roots SHOOT down to the bottom of the container anyways...
    not to mention a soil predicated on water soluble nutrients to be "there" later is a severely flawed one.
    Make a mix, concentrating more on meal-based nutrients, that are available throughout the grow.
    if thats what your goal is.
    Rasta Roy and sworth like this.
    Rasta Roy

    Rasta Roy Well-Known Member

    Double what @greasemonkeymann said! Mix it up! Nothing in agriculture science will tell you to layer the soil a container garden (or any garden for that matter).

    Also skip the rock phosphate and the guano from your soil mix. The rock phosphate has metals, and the guano is too water soluble and will wash away before you use it. Guano does make a fantastic top dressing if you wish to fertilize throughout your grow.

    However if you want to use just water throughout the grow, meals are best.

    Alfalfa Meal, Kelp Meal, and Fish Bone Meal are your best friend. A lot of people dislike blood meal because it's from the cattle industry but I've liked the soil mixes I've left it in more than the ones I've left it out of. I always end up having to add more Guano or Fish Fertilizer during late veg if I leave out the blood meal.

    Those will cover your NPK, along with calcium, trace minerals, trichanitol (the growth hormone in superthrive).

    Gypsum is a great addition as well!
    greasemonkeymann and Yodaweed like this.

    greasemonkeymann Well-Known Member

    I don't dislike bloodmeal, just prefer fish meal to it. It's a damn good source of nitrogen.
    But between the fish meal, crab meal, insect meal, neem meal, alfalfa meal, I simply don't have "room" in that lineup for an amendment giving more nitrogen, but depending on your ingredients blood meal can be a valuable addition to an organic recipe, a cornerstone in fact.
    and basalt is good shit for minerals, so is gypsum, just don't use too much of gypsum.
    def alfalfa and fish meal for the base nitrogen needs and you are set, and bloodmeal is good too, just go light on that.
    but over the years, those highlighted ingredients I wouldn't go without.
    They each do specific things to the recipe that are crucial
    Posionivy and Rasta Roy like this.
    Rasta Roy

    Rasta Roy Well-Known Member

    I'll have give fish and crab meal a try. I've messed with fish bone meal for a while I might as well lol. None of the stores around here seem to stock neem meal though I'll have to order, I've been wanting to use it for a while. It helps with pest control doesn't it?
    greasemonkeymann likes this.

    greasemonkeymann Well-Known Member

    yea, but honestly neem does WAY more than that, I don't use it for the pest management, I use it because it's a REAL good source of a whole lot of things, macros and micros.
    I just hate the smell, been wanting to try karanja for a while now
    the sulfur content, and slow release of a pretty even NPK are my favorite attributes of it
    Rasta Roy likes this.
    Rasta Roy

    Rasta Roy Well-Known Member

    @greasemonkeymann I finally got a hold of some neem seed meal. How much would you top dress with per gallon? I got everything from five gallon through ten gallon lol.

    The soil already has Alfalfa Meal, kelp meal, fish bone meal, Gypsum, greensand, and Azomite mixed in to it. I've top dressed with worm castings and Bat Guano, but it's been over two weeks since I dropped the guano down.
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member

    Damn I was just about to mix my 1st batch of sub's ss, so leave out the guano and how often and how much would one top dress instead?

    thanks in advance...
    Rasta Roy

    Rasta Roy Well-Known Member

    Are you talking about top dressing the guano or amendments in general?

    Instead of wasting your time and money on subcools recipe.

    I recommend using my fool proof and tested one. It's cheaper, is water only, and best of all doesn't need to turn into a giant ammonia pile in your basement ("cook").

    15% peat moss, pine bark, or coco coir
    35% aeration (I prefer Perlite or rice hulls but course Sand, and pumice are other options
    50% composted organic matter (this could be compost, composted cow or horse manure, worm castings, leaf mold). I prefer a combination of as many different kinds of compost I can but whatever is available to you and the best quality is what you should lean on.

    Neem Seed Meal or Neem Cake 1/2 cup per cubic foot
    Crab shell meal or shrimp shell meal 1/2 cup per cubic foot
    Fish Bone Meal 1/2 cup per cubic foot
    Gypsum 1/2 cup per cubic foot
    Langbeinite 1/4 cup per cubic foot
    Kelp meal 1/2 cup per cubic foot
    Alfalfa meal 1/4 cup per cubic foot
    Oyster shell flour 1/4 cup per cubic foot

    Best part about this mix? If you ask me about why it works so well, I can actually tell you.

    So say you can't get a hold of something like neem cake...I can tell you alright, without the nitrogen fixing soil conditioning of neem cake you may want to use a slow release nitrogen source like feather meal, it will not be a replacement in full capability but since I can explain to you it's function I can let you know what to do in it's absence.

    Sorry if that sounded snarky but this particular thread was talking way too much shit without being able to actually talk about shit lol.

    Here's a pic of the mix in action.

    Rasta Roy

    Rasta Roy Well-Known Member

    My bad this isn't the subcools thread I thought it was lol...this thread is all good.
    Bubba's girl likes this.
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member

    Thanks so much Rasta Roy. I will probably give your recipe a go. I think I have all the ingredients already cept for the neem and gypsum.

    Are you saying this recipe doesn't require a "cooking"?
    Rasta Roy likes this.
    Rasta Roy

    Rasta Roy Well-Known Member

    It does not! By choosing the right amendments and relying on some quality compost and/or worm castings we can build a soil that gives what we need from the get go, with meals that break down over the course of the grow. Cooking the soil by adding a bunch of heavy nitrogen inputs is supposed to serve the purpose of making all the nutrients In the amendments plant available. A completely unnecessary process if you build your soil right.

    Plus having certain meals and organic matter break down in your soil as you're growing is actually pretty beneficial as they release fulvic, and humic acid as they do, to name a few.

    Gypsum is pretty killer and good to have on hand for future grows as you'll need the ph buffering of a calcium carbonate amendment (oyster shell flour or lime) less and less. The calcium sulfate will give you the calcium you need without raising your soil ph. And sulfur will help unbind any bound up magnesium in your soil and then the free calcium ion will pick up any phosphorus bound up in your soil as well because gypsum is the amendment that keeps on giving. Lol. Feel free to message me or holler with any questions I can usually answer same day depending on how much dirt I'm dealing with on any given day!
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member

    ^ thanks for the help Rasta. I will pm you for more specifics, but you've already shared a lot.
    Rasta Roy likes this.
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member

    Hey Rast Roy, did you say this recipe was suitable for rooted clones? If so, what size container would you start them in?

    Sorry I accidentally erased our pm history in which you gave me a lot of valuable advice.

    Thanks in advance.
    Rasta Roy likes this.
    Rasta Roy

    Rasta Roy Well-Known Member

    Yeah, if you just mixed up the soil they might look a little funny for a few days but they clear up and will look golden in under a week. But I mix up a batch and have a big tub ready for whenever I need clones potted.

    My clone cubes go to solo cup, to one gallon pot, to my big beds.
    Bubba's girl likes this.
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member

    For the cloning stage, what do you think about cutting the mix with about 50% promix, just for the solo cup stage? They'd only be in those solo's for a week or two.
    Rasta Roy

    Rasta Roy Well-Known Member

    Definitely a safe bet until you are more familiar with your strains. My bubba kushes can get planted in anything, but my skunks are sensitive.
    Bubba's girl likes this.

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