Advanced Flushing Techniques

homebrewer

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
The goal is to never feed your plant more than it needs at any point during the plant's life. So if you don't overfeed then you don't need to flush. But if you work out this flushing question backwards and ask yourself if you should feed 'full strength' on the last watering of the plant's life, the answer is no because it's a waste of plant food. What about the second to last watering, or the third? You have to ask yourself 'how much food is necessary during the last week or two of the plant's life in order to keep the plant healthy?'

I think when you work through this question, some sort of tapering down in the last week with maybe the last watering being straight water makes the most sense. You're not only meeting the plant's needs but you're also not wasting plant food.
 
Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
MichiganMedGrower said:
My flowers are the same way. No one cares if I cure them. Or really realizes.

And my experiments with pk led me to use only a grow ratio all the way through. I did not get more yield or quality.

What I may need is a humic product to help with my buildup around week 5.
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What is the base P in your grow, do you also use supplements with P?. If your P is between 60-80 then you'd likely see very little benefit from pk anyway (at-least for P). Also, as far as I've read sulfer plays a big role in potency where nutrients are concerned so again it makes sense that dropping p/k would have little effect on it. I only question this as it brings into doubt what I thought I knew.

Oh and on topic, if the above two posts don't kill the thread nothing will.
 
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MichiganMedGrower

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
Flowki said:
What is the base P in your grow, do you also use supplements with P?. If your P is between 60-80 then you'd likely see very little benefit from pk anyway (at-least for P). Also, as far as I've read sulfer plays a big role in potency where nutrients are concerned so again it makes sense that dropping p/k would have little effect on it. I only question this as it brings into doubt what I thought I knew.

Oh and on topic, if the above two posts don't kill the thread nothing will.
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Well it is a discussion forum. And the extra pk everyone adds with no nitrogen to balance it out causes the need to flush. Lol.

I am only using pure Blend Pro Grow for a couple of years now. I believe it is 4-3-5. It’s hydro organic so I really don’t know the ppm’s.

When I did switch to a bloom boost I used botanicare kind bloom. It is 4-6-6 but the base is all calcium nitrate so you can use it as a balanced feed or just a bloom boost.

I believe in the phosphorous myth. It may be necessary for fruiting tomatoes but our plant needs less. It actually needs a lot of nitrogen and potassium and more calcium than P.

To answer your point I likely have always had 60+ P in my Grow. I believe we need more like 30. And plenty of n and k and mag and calcium included in the PBP grow.

Adding extra anything always helped block the roots or didn’t show any gains. Too much seemed to affect flavor and even potency.

Also suffer is key to good growth and many plant functions and they know it affects terpenes but I can’t find anywhere where it says it would help potency except from rm3 and his website of followers. “Sulfer Grows trichs”. Ah. No.

I do have plenty of it between the natural based nutes. Well water and ocean forest.

For good info on what is actually in the plant tissue dude Grows show interviewed the president of dyna grow and he shares his labs results. They are supposedly making a weed specific nute based on indica hybrids. Supports what I have seen and said above.


My main problem seems to be micro element buildup blocking my roots even with mild feeding.

Maybe I should try a nute with no calcium like jacks classic.

But I love my results. Just have to leach pots with low concentration of nutes to clear the roots when I see leaf stress. It’s easy to get lazy. ;-)

For the topic at hand. If we properly maintain our medium there is no need to flush more out. Even near harvest.

But let’s not forget we grow an accumulator plant. So everything you pour in can end up in the plant.

They are planted around Chernobyl to suck up the radiation. And it works.
 
Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
MichiganMedGrower said:
Well it is a discussion forum. And the extra pk everyone adds with no nitrogen to balance it out causes the need to flush. Lol.
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By that I assume you mean people who feed a ''bloom'' ratio with low N?.



MichiganMedGrower said:
I believe in the phosphorous myth. It may be necessary for fruiting tomatoes but our plant needs less. It actually needs a lot of nitrogen and potassium and more calcium than P.
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I agree with this, everything I've read on uptake and microbes suggests more than 80ppm P is a waste or will create issues. That is assuming you have good environment to make use of 80ppm P and avoid deficiency.

MichiganMedGrower said:
To answer your point I likely have always had 60+ P in my Grow. I believe we need more like 30. And plenty of n and k and mag and calcium included in the PBP grow.
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I've never read something to say as low as 30. That is the figure I read (multiple times on scholar) as the minimum amount of P for plant health AKA the veg/early flower amount.

MichiganMedGrower said:
Adding extra anything always helped block the roots or didn’t show any gains. Too much seemed to affect flavor and even potency.
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The thing to also consider with ratio is also total ppm. 800/900ppm seems to be the upper limit with run off before even run off is not enough. If your ratios are in check you can add things so long as the total ppm is not breached. For example, using 40-60ppm synthetic P but also using an organic microbe product that has/unlocks more P at will along with other benefits.

MichiganMedGrower said:
Also suffer is key to good growth and many plant functions and they know it affects terpenes but I can’t find anywhere where it says it would help potency except from rm3 and his website of followers. “Sulfer Grows trichs”. Ah. No.
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As far as I can recall it has an effect on chlorophyll and that surely has an effect on reaching the plants potency limit?.

MichiganMedGrower said:
For good info on what is actually in the plant tissue dude Grows show interviewed the president of dyna grow and he shares his labs results. They are supposedly making a weed specific nute based on indica hybrids. Supports what I have seen and said above.
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I'm always sceptical about info that comes from brands, the info may be correct but still. They always tend to go down the same path of ''the plant is special and requires special nutes, but we've found the key'' etc.

MichiganMedGrower said:
My main problem seems to be micro element buildup blocking my roots even with mild feeding.
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To me that sounds like a misdiagnosis. A decent grower on here use to grow multiple strains and he treat them all the same with good results. He was using a ratio/max ppm that allowed all of the diff strains to thrive.

MichiganMedGrower said:
Maybe I should try a nute with no calcium like jacks classic.
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Thiat is what it sounds like, you have a bad ratio of something. True PPM is a damn horrible thing to understand (for me anyway) I only learned it once to get my ratio/max correct then never used it again o0. But I'd do it again if I switched nutes. Never any leaf issues, no early fading or anything like that.. and can also go 2 watering with no run off and still not get issues (although I try not to do that). Given the organic element it's impossible to know the exact amount but it's around 860ppm at peak.

MichiganMedGrower said:
But I love my results. Just have to leach pots with low concentration of nutes to clear the roots when I see leaf stress. It’s easy to get lazy. ;-)

For the topic at hand. If we properly maintain our medium there is no need to flush more out. Even near harvest.

But let’s not forget we grow an accumulator plant. So everything you pour in can end up in the plant.

They are planted around Chernobyl to suck up the radiation. And it works.
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Yes I agree with this too, aside from your leaf stress that I'm pretty sure you can cure. Some people feed low 600 ish ppm and never have run off, so it's clear that if you get it spot on you ''can'' avoid issues. To me that seems like a very difficult thing to get right and even if done I don't think it would give the most optimal result due to what I imagine would be ''some'' salt build up over time. Maybe I am wrong on that.

Yes I read the whole deal on mj taking up radiation. It seems people need to be more concerned with what they are putting in 90% of the plants life.. since as the linked study above shows flushing does nothing. Stands to reason, it's like eating nothing but McDonald for 20 years then expecting to get rid of all the built up fat in one big shit. Not going to happen.
 
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Jefferson1977

Jefferson1977

Well-Known Member
Lucky Luke said:
https://medteknutrients.com.au/flushing-the-science/
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Not sure what metals they tested for exactly since leaching will do one thing: it will cause the plant to scrounge mobile nutrients from other parts of the plant like the fan leaves, which is why they will turn yellow because Nitrogen is mobile and will move within the plant. Immobile nutrients cannot be leached out of plant tissue, mobile nutrients can be moved within the plant (like to the root zone through an osmotic process). NPK are all mobile nutrients.
 
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MichiganMedGrower

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
Flowki said:
By that I assume you mean people who feed a ''bloom'' ratio with low N?.





I agree with this, everything I've read on uptake and microbes suggests more than 80ppm P is a waste or will create issues. That is assuming you have good environment to make use of 80ppm P and avoid deficiency.



I've never read something to say as low as 30. That is the figure I read (multiple times on scholar) as the minimum amount of P for plant health AKA the veg/early flower amount.



The thing to also consider with ratio is also total ppm. 800/900ppm seems to be the upper limit with run off before even run off is not enough. If your ratios are in check you can add things so long as the total ppm is not breached. For example, using 40-60ppm synthetic P but also using an organic microbe product that has/unlocks more P at will along with other benefits.



As far as I can recall it has an effect on chlorophyll and that surely has an effect on reaching the plants potency limit?.



I'm always sceptical about info that comes from brands, the info may be correct but still. They always tend to go down the same path of ''the plant is special and requires special nutes, but we've found the key'' etc.



To me that sounds like a misdiagnosis. A decent grower on here use to grow multiple strains and he treat them all the same with good results. He was using a ratio/max ppm that allowed all of the diff strains to thrive.



Thiat is what it sounds like, you have a bad ratio of something. True PPM is a damn horrible thing to understand (for me anyway) I only learned it once to get my ratio/max correct then never used it again o0. But I'd do it again if I switched nutes. Never any leaf issues, no early fading or anything like that.. and can also go 2 watering with no run off and still not get issues (although I try not to do that). Given the organic element it's impossible to know the exact amount but it's around 860ppm at peak.



Yes I agree with this too, aside from your leaf stress that I'm pretty sure you can cure. Some people feed low 600 ish ppm and never have run off, so it's clear that if you get it spot on you ''can'' avoid issues. To me that seems like a very difficult thing to get right and even if done I don't think it would give the most optimal result due to what I imagine would be ''some'' salt build up over time. Maybe I am wrong on that.

Yes I read the whole deal on mj taking up radiation. It seems people need to be more concerned with what they are putting in 90% of the plants life.. since as the linked study above shows flushing does nothing. Stands to reason, it's like eating nothing but McDonald for 20 years then expecting to get rid of all the built up fat in one big shit. Not going to happen.
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Wow! Lot of info discussed here. :-)

I will never get it perfect as long as I keep planting a different seed every time and grow them all individually together.

I strive to feed as little as possible for the most potential I can achieve. In ocean forest with added large perlite I rarely feed over .8 ec. 400ppm. But every watering has nutes.

I think I may have an iron excess in my well water that is causing my problems. It has only been this last year and I am still running into the potassium burns and calcium spotting.

It’s just like when you feed too much when the soil still has available nutes I think.

I misstated the P at 30. The dyna Grow tests show calcium and phosphorus at around 60 ppm.

I get what you say about the brands. Hell I ignored the forums when I learned about this stuff and came here with a 2 year successful perpetual garden. I am definitely ahhh, careful about where my info comes from.

I’m going to link the interview in case you want to listen to the tissue test results. The president admits he made the bloom bottle only due to customer demand and not for what plants need at all. It is a completely honest telling of what weed actually needs. Just takes a half hour of our time.

He basically says what I have found. A grow ratio is what the plant needs start to finish.

Thanks for commenting back on all that. It was very interesting and very useful info. Nice to talk with you brother.
 
Lucky Luke

Lucky Luke

Well-Known Member
Jefferson1977 said:
Not sure what metals they tested for exactly since leaching will do one thing: it will cause the plant to scrounge mobile nutrients from other parts of the plant like the fan leaves, which is why they will turn yellow because Nitrogen is mobile and will move within the plant. Immobile nutrients cannot be leached out of plant tissue, mobile nutrients can be moved within the plant (like to the root zone through an osmotic process). NPK are all mobile nutrients.
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Im not sure of why you quoted me, no one has said that NPK are Immobile but the whole paper should be available to look at here. https://atrium.lib.uoguelph.ca/xmlui/handle/10214/12125.
 
Jefferson1977

Jefferson1977

Well-Known Member
Just quoting you because it was your link...and adding my 2 cents after reading the summary. In the paper you can see the differences may appear to be negligible, but they are there. Mobile nutrients are less in the flush group. Immobile nutrients like Sulfur stay pretty exact. This pic is from the study, and I theorize if you had removed the fan leaves you would have seen an even lower concentration of mobile nutrients in the flushed bud.

fig4.16.jpg
I theorize the best way to build osmotic pressure in the root zone for mobile nutrient transference is to remove all fans and feed tap/RO water + same feed ratio as max flowering ratio for a total of 0.2-0.4EC for the last 10-14 days in flood and drain and 5-7 days in RDWC. You would only remove fans at the same time as this last feeding schedule.
 
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Lucky Luke

Lucky Luke

Well-Known Member
Jefferson1977 said:
Just quoting you because it was your link...and adding my 2 cents after reading the summary. In the paper you can see the differences may appear to be negligible, but they are there. Mobile nutrients are less in the flush group. Immobile nutrients like Sulfur stay pretty exact. This pic is from the study, and I theorize if you had removed the fan leaves you would have seen an even lower concentration of mobile nutrients in the flushed bud.

View attachment 4200384
I theorize the best way to build osmotic pressure in the root zone for mobile nutrient transference is to remove all fans and feed tap/RO water + same feed ratio as max flowering ratio for a total of 0.2-0.4EC for the last 10-14 days in flood and drain and 5-7 days in RDWC. You would only remove fans at the same time as this last feeding schedule.
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The control looks best to me...But either way the results on the others are neither here nor there. No difference in the grand scheme of things as stated in the summery in the bottom of the graph you posted.
 
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MichiganMedGrower

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
Jefferson1977 said:
Here is my garden and big buds not sure what yours looks like. I'm gonna flush the fuck outta this. In fact I already started. It's going to taste much better flushed.


View attachment 4200540
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It will taste better because it has been pushed with fertilizer and has a lot of extra chlorophyll. It will taste better sooner if it is faded some.

I like to taper feed during ripening. Going for a nice medium green at harvest.

Tastes better with a longer cure of course but patients love it right off the branch after 6-10 days drying. Plenty smooth and tasty.
 
Lucky Luke

Lucky Luke

Well-Known Member
Jefferson1977 said:
LOL. I got nothing to prove buddy. Take care, I believe I made my point.

Cheers.
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Jefferson1977 said:
It's funny people are so DOGMATIC to things they don't even totally care about. It is fucked. Humans are weird.
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I'm not sure why your riled up for? I just posted a link from a nutrient company to a paper...your the one who wants to prove something by debating its merits with me and then getting snarky. I didn't write it nor am I saying its gospel. I don't care if you flush or not. Its not like I'll loose sleep over what a stranger does in their garden. Its interesting as the yields didn't suffer either way.
Just so your aware I don't flush (I may leach if needed during a grow of cause) but I often water only the last week'ish if the plants look ok.

Not over feeding, drying and curing properly are the points 95% of growers agree on makes the difference in the end results.
 
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Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
MichiganMedGrower said:
Wow! Lot of info discussed here. :-)

I will never get it perfect as long as I keep planting a different seed every time and grow them all individually together.

I strive to feed as little as possible for the most potential I can achieve. In ocean forest with added large perlite I rarely feed over .8 ec. 400ppm. But every watering has nutes.

I think I may have an iron excess in my well water that is causing my problems. It has only been this last year and I am still running into the potassium burns and calcium spotting.

It’s just like when you feed too much when the soil still has available nutes I think.

I misstated the P at 30. The dyna Grow tests show calcium and phosphorus at around 60 ppm.

I get what you say about the brands. Hell I ignored the forums when I learned about this stuff and came here with a 2 year successful perpetual garden. I am definitely ahhh, careful about where my info comes from.

I’m going to link the interview in case you want to listen to the tissue test results. The president admits he made the bloom bottle only due to customer demand and not for what plants need at all. It is a completely honest telling of what weed actually needs. Just takes a half hour of our time.

He basically says what I have found. A grow ratio is what the plant needs start to finish.

Thanks for commenting back on all that. It was very interesting and very useful info. Nice to talk with you brother.
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Yeah I listened to the vid for 10 min or so then realised I already have ;p. I also agree in using veg type ratios start to finish, I think it was DR.who on here who shed light on it for me personally. As far as I can tell something close to a 3-1-3 covers it all good, with a slight P increase during bloom. How you achieve the 3-1-3 depends on what you are using and as you've found out, water quality. It sounds like my nutes but using your water would shoot up from 840 actual ppm to over 1100. I'd have to get that fixed if it were me, since you can never feed the fullest ratio of the other elements with ought iron? or calcium? spiking way too high. Is the well water your only option?, maybe it's already filtered enough to be usable should you know exactly whats in it?.
 
Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
Jefferson1977 said:
Here is my garden and big buds not sure what yours looks like. I'm gonna flush the fuck outta this. In fact I already started. It's going to taste much better flushed.


View attachment 4200540
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It's as if all your above posts served no purpose but to allow you to show off a pic of your buds. They do look good but peg down a bit, they certainly don't make your opinion more valued.

I could claim to be a sex god then post a pic of my dick as passive aggressive proof? (not the best example). It's like.. logic, in the mind of the illogical.
 
MichiganMedGrower

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
Flowki said:
Yeah I listened to the vid for 10 min or so then realised I already have ;p. I also agree in using veg type ratios start to finish, I think it was DR.who on here who shed light on it for me personally. As far as I can tell something close to a 3-1-3 covers it all good, with a slight P increase during bloom. How you achieve the 3-1-3 depends on what you are using and as you've found out, water quality. It sounds like my nutes but using your water would shoot up from 840 actual ppm to over 1100. I'd have to get that fixed if it were me, since you can never feed the fullest ratio of the other elements with ought iron? or calcium? spiking way too high. Is the well water your only option?, maybe it's already filtered enough to be usable should you know exactly whats in it?.
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My well water is only moderately hard. It was at 150 ppm of mineral content when I moved in and after a year dropped to around 100. I think the iron balance that was working great may have changed.

We get buildup on the faucets and shower after some time. But no calcium buildup. Iron.

So my plants are very green and seem fine. The lockup sneaks up on me. I will pay more attention. It’s tough with different strains from seed all the time.

The answer as I found out last night again is to leach the pots every few weeks with a gallon of water only and then a gallon of low like 250-500 ppm nutes.

My burned crispy edges and tips went from crispy to soft. It’s funny feeling a half dead looking leaf and the tan parts don’t crumble anymore.

Looks ugly but the buds are growing great.

Must be calcium or iron buildup. I read with hard water you should use more runoff to maintain the medium back in the jorje Grow book.

Thank you for all the info and ideas.
 
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