AACT + fish emulsion foliar in wk2 flower

Hi RIU

More enthusiastic noobness... is there any possible negative effects from foliar spraying with an AACT early in flower (wk2, first pistils showing?)

I really want to give them a nitrogen boost during the stretch phase and I've already made up a reservoir of nutes at bloom ratios. Also, on another thread I was advised to use hydrosylate (vs fish emulsion, @greasemonkeymann) because of metal contamination... this is the stuff I have, but I'm probably gonna finish the bottle off anyway.

Chester da Horse said:

Hi RIU

More enthusiastic noobness... is there any possible negative effects from foliar spraying with an AACT early in flower (wk2, first pistils showing?)

I really want to give them a nitrogen boost during the stretch phase and I've already made up a reservoir of nutes at bloom ratios. Also, on another thread I was advised to use hydrosylate (vs fish emulsion, @greasemonkeymann) because of metal contamination... this is the stuff I have, but I'm probably gonna finish the bottle off anyway.

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ok, so keep in mind, you want to have your nutrient teas and your AACT, separated.
Tim the microbe man and his fancy microscope has observed that adding anything other than EWC molasses and water can delay if not retard microbe populations.
nutrient teas are good, but a fish emulsion foliar I would NOT do....
may end up tasting a lil fishy...
the soil? sure, but not a foliar.
an AACT foliar can help with keeping powder mold down, evidently the microbes outdo the mold spores, I personally have never used an AACT for a spray, I like to add those microbes to my soil.
Another thing to consider is perhaps an alfalfa tea, early in flowering is the ideal time for that.
Oh, and aother and perhaps more important reason to use hydrosolate over emulsion is----
here is a copied piece of info
Emulsions first remove the fish meal (protein) part of the fish and sell that for pet food. Then they remove oils from the fish for Codfish Liver Oil or related procedures. Whatever is left after these processes is then boiled down to a 50% solution and sold as a fertilizer. This process has two major problems. First, the steam they use to remove the meal from the fish frame comes from municipal water, which contains chlorine. When the product is boiled down to a 50% solution, the chlorine is doubled and can be as high as 14% in the final product. Second, no matter what anyone tells you, you cannot evaporate a liquid down to a 50% solution without the use of heat. Once heat is used, all the heat sensitive vitamins, amino acids, growth hormones and the enzymes are destroyed. Some companies add enzymes back into the product so they can call it a hydrolyzed process, but technically it is far from it, and is actually just a hydrolyzed emulsion. Note: Fish naturally contain approximately 2.3% Nitrogen, it must be boiled down (or evaporated). Therefore it has been heated, no matter what the salesperson try's to tell you, the heat sensitive components from the fish are gone. The only other possibility is that it has added Nitrogen from other sources.

Thank you, thank you! Your mentoring of my organic quest is really appreciated mate.

Ok, I get it - no cutting corners - keep the nute tea/AACT separated.

I haven't been able to get my hands on straight alfalfa meal to make alfalfa tea, only have access to baled lucerne hay (which I have been assured is actually the same plant as alfalfa).
But, I built my compost heap with a significant (30-40%) portion of this alfalfa hay - so I hope the AACT I make from it should have most of the benefits of using a straight alfalfa tea anyway.

I'll keep the fishy stuff for the soil/veggie patch.

Sending plenty of good bud karma your way!

Chester da Horse said:

Thank you, thank you! Your mentoring of my organic quest is really appreciated mate.

Ok, I get it - no cutting corners - keep the nute tea/AACT separated.

I haven't been able to get my hands on straight alfalfa meal to make alfalfa tea, only have access to baled lucerne hay (which I have been assured is actually the same plant as alfalfa).
But, I built my compost heap with a significant (30-40%) portion of this alfalfa hay - so I hope the AACT I make from it should have most of the benefits of using a straight alfalfa tea anyway.

I'll keep the fishy stuff for the soil/veggie patch.

Sending plenty of good bud karma your way!

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my pleasure to help!
And I will take any and all the good karma I can get.
it's not so much that it's cutting corners, just more so that the introduction of pretty much anything disrupts the microbial multiplication rates
kelp, hydrosylate and the like.
kelp meal, alfalfa meal, and molasses make a really nice well rounded nutrient tea, plus you get the triacantrol (always misspell that word)
dandelion and comfrey fpe tea is my personal favorite.
Hah, I had to look it up, I guess it's a pot-ta-toe, po-TAH-to, type of thing, Lucerne hay and alfalfa are the same thing, just different name
here is what wiki says

Alfalfa /ælˈfælfə/, Medicago sativa, also called lucerne, is a perennial flowering plant in the pea family Fabaceae cultivated as an important forage crop in many countries around the world. The Spanish-Arabic (according to wiktionary and the DRAE) name alfalfa is widely used, particularly in North America and Australia. But in the UK,[4] South Africa and New Zealand, the more commonly used name is lucerne.

Learn something new each day.
A compost with that will be some good stuff, just make sure you add at least an equal amount of leaves to that too.
Leaf compost is some good shit

But not autumn leaves right? somewhere I read that autumn leaves aren't so good in your compost pile - I forget why... you had to let them turn into decomposed leaf litter first.

And fermented plant extracts... wow, I might get my head around the simpler techniques and actually harvest a crop before I go there... sounds like it could go wrong for a noob in so many ways. Like bathtub moonshine for plants.

Chester da Horse said:

But not autumn leaves right? somewhere I read that autumn leaves aren't so good in your compost pile - I forget why... you had to let them turn into decomposed leaf litter first.

And fermented plant extracts... wow, I might get my head around the simpler techniques and actually harvest a crop before I go there... sounds like it could go wrong for a noob in so many ways. Like bathtub moonshine for plants.

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I don't know of any reason why fallen leaves are bad, the green ones will offset your carbon in your pile, but I use autumn leaves..
works awesome.
You do want them to be composted first, but that's true for most everything, except maybe comfrey
ALL leaves must be composted though, or they will rob your soil of nitrogen as they breakdown.
Maybe I missed something though.
Anyone know of any reasons why fallen leaves wouldn't be good for a compost pile?

ah i found the source - my bad, i confused it -

autumn leaves good (shred them up and mix with high N source)
eucalyptus leaves troublesome (if they don't get fully hot composted, they can inhibit other plants growth).
We got some big old eucalypts around our yard

Chester da Horse said:

ah i found the source - my bad, i confused it -

autumn leaves good (shred them up and mix with high N source)
eucalyptus leaves troublesome (if they don't get fully hot composted, they can inhibit other plants growth).
We got some big old eucalypts around our yard

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no problem man.
One thing to consider if you are in the organic grow, long-run...
get like three or four bags full of JUST leaves, and let them mold and degrade on their own, don't add anything, then in like two yrs (I know it's a while) you can make a whole new soil recipe using leaf-mold as the peat or coco portion in your mix, the difference is pretty substantial, a much better CEC than even peat, keep in mind this is from other VERY experienced no-till organic growers.
I have yet to do this myself, but this autumn I am going to go a lil crazy on this.
Composting is pretty cool, I just now am able to "harvest" my last yrs pile, I amended with fish bone meal, alfalfa, comfrey, rock dusts, oyster flour, some leftover high nitrogen guano, neem meal, kelp meal, hole slabs of bull-kelp dragged from the beach...
good shit

Chester da Horse said:

But not autumn leaves right? somewhere I read that autumn leaves aren't so good in your compost pile - I forget why... you had to let them turn into decomposed leaf litter first.

And fermented plant extracts... wow, I might get my head around the simpler techniques and actually harvest a crop before I go there... sounds like it could go wrong for a noob in so many ways. Like bathtub moonshine for plants.

Click to expand...

oh, I somehow missed this response.
fermeted plant extracts are WAY easier than it sounds.
Sounds like you need a chemist to do it but you don't.
You need a bucket, dandelions, stinging nettles, or comfrey (or all three if you are a pimp-daddy)
Bucket+water+dandelion/nettles/comfrey.
Let it sit and get stinky for at least a week.
Then dilute to a pint glass full per 3 gallons.
Good shit there too
Works pretty damn great for powder mold too, as a foliar spray. Doubles as a nutrient spray as well.
Another way is to get the dandelion/nettles/comfrey and simply put it in a bucket with no water, and as it degrades it turns into a black sludgey type mess, and you can use that as well, that one needs to be diluted to 1 part sludge to 15 of water or even 20 parts of water.

Thanks for the ongoing info stream tho, great food for thought! You have gained a follower.

Its autumn down under and I've got a pile of cherry tree leaves building up which I'm watering with kelp extract - a sustainable homemade replacement for coco sounds great! And composting is like a cooking/science - getting the ratios right and boosting the trace elements - its damn satisfying when it works too!

So FPE fights powder mould? I have nightmares about that shit, so I will definitely look into it. I heard its a great silica source too (I hope the anti silica brigade doesn't come running, seriously some of them are rabid nutbags)

Problem is I don't see stinging nettle round our parts very much and dandelion is a weed down under and haven't seen the seeds for comfrey or stinging nettle at the garden stores...

greasemonkeymann said:

oh, I somehow missed this response.
fermeted plant extracts are WAY easier than it sounds.
Sounds like you need a chemist to do it but you don't.
You need a bucket, dandelions, stinging nettles, or comfrey (or all three if you are a pimp-daddy)
Bucket+water+dandelion/nettles/comfrey.
Let it sit and get stinky for at least a week.
Then dilute to a pint glass full per 3 gallons.
Good shit there too
Works pretty damn great for powder mold too, as a foliar spray. Doubles as a nutrient spray as well.
Another way is to get the dandelion/nettles/comfrey and simply put it in a bucket with no water, and as it degrades it turns into a black sludgey type mess, and you can use that as well, that one needs to be diluted to 1 part sludge to 15 of water or even 20 parts of water.

Click to expand...

Really a good 1st for fermentation is to measure Redox.....this gives you an exact idea of what concentrations of ions are separating due to oxygen or reduction of...concentrations....

Redox will also vary with the type of fermentation, plant ferments we are looking for are usually different from alcoholic type of fermentations ie the end products are not just Ethanol and Co2.... versus lactic acids and Co2....homolactic heterofermentative

I think it is extremely important to understand chemistry to achieve a consistent brew, but you certainly don't have to be prof level or anything......just understanding how the different types of fermentation operate and then measuring redox concentrations to have an idea of what ions are available in the solution at basically what rates of oxygen, which is really only two directions....falling oxygen levels towards anaerobic [no oxygen] or rising oxygen levels to aerobic [oxygenated].....

Ok..what does that all mean.....well you could identify all minerals and their forms both organic and inorganic that could be directly assilimated by a plant and brew for those minerals....

Abiqua said:

I think it is extremely important to understand chemistry to achieve a consistent brew ... you could identify all minerals and their forms both organic and inorganic that could be directly assilimated by a plant and brew for those minerals....

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Well said sir, do you have any suggested links/reading material for FPE001 Redox for Dummies?

Also, seeing I have a few experienced and well spoken growers checking in on this thread, could you please take a look at these plants please and tell me what tailored foliar spray you would apply - i think they are showing some nitrogen deficiency in Wk2 of flower...


I can go synthetic salts and mix up Ca-Nitrate to a specific EC (from my standard 2-part hydroponic nutes pack) or I could try and apply a foliar nutrient tea of some description... could anyone make a recommendation?

Another crazy idea I had on which I would welcome your opinions: Is it possible to add a food source (say fish emulsion) to a brewing SST (after the initial germination and root radicles appear) and bubble the seeds for a week or so to get them to grow? Would the mashed up SST then be similar to an alfalfa meal tea with SST benefits?

I wish you could double like a post or something, thanks very much for that decision tree!

Sounds like I have a micro/trace deficiency - sulphur or iron being the likely culprits, magnesium lower down on the list as well. The only caveat would be if there is a lockout phenomenon or pH disturbance underlying the problem...

I hope the AACT I'm brewing at the moment will perk them up. The compost pile it came from was phenomenal, for interest sake I'll list what I put in:
6 months of kitchen scraps (mainly veggie scraps, bananas/citrus peels, tea leaves, coffee grounds etc)
Sugar cane straw ~30%
Lucerne/alfalfa hay ~40%
6 months worth of fish pond string-algae scum
a few liberal scoops of volcanic rock dust
a 20L bag of cow manure
handful of pelletised rooster manure
cooked off over 6 weeks with regular turning/watering.

This AACT gets bubbled for 48hrs and is then fortified with seasol/fulvic acid/volcanic rock dust prior to application - so I think the combination should cover all the trace elements...

Chester da Horse said:

Well said sir, do you have any suggested links/reading material for FPE001 Redox for Dummies?

Click to expand...

I actually was working on one in the past and need a simmer down project to work on... I have been blowing my mind learning how to program and code Arduino over the last few weeks and I need a break!

I will try and get something posted up over the next couple of days.....

You can wiki redox reactions to get an overall sense and google from there....unfortunately for us, no one has compiled clear case studies on fermented fertilizers for horticulture, but the processes are well covered in other fields....

I find a huge amount of info from silage studies....silage is a process where they ret certain types of fodder [animal feed] in dry [aka not in a solution] anaerobic environments...When done right this produces edible material with enhanced nutrient content. It relys on epiphytic [plant dwelling microrganisms] that are faculative [can survive and sometimes navigate between aerobic and anaerobic environments i.e. yeast, actinomycetes etc.....] to basically break down cellulose and lignin....

Another area is wastewater management and wetland rehabilitation.....
....this is actually where I got my start in chemistry, thru water quality management, but these areas specifically ^ cover anaerobic environments and redox reactions thoroughly, as both types of studies, rely heavily on such information...

Lastly, the study of fermented foods itself....
From yogurt, cheese, nato, tofu, buttermilk, Tabasco, etc etc...sourdough
I really have been trying to go thru Google Scholar and find more studies on the identified microlife...they are continually finding new organisms in fermented foods and but at the same time, they really have standardized the fermentation process...aka sourdough starts in Italy have been alive for hundreds of years...

Well time to dust off Mark, Mark and Smith (my undergraduate biochemistry textbook) to relearn the basic redox stuff, and I'll be waiting for your words of wisdom on the FPE/horticulture aspects. Bring it on!

Anyway, I've always believed the best way to learn something properly is to explain it to someone else.

Arduino looks fascinating - another worthy project for a healthy mind - I've been looking for an interesting way to get back into coding and tech hardware (left all that behind after college). U sir are somewhat of an inspiration.

Anyway back to the pot plants: The yellowing was becoming more pronounced. Young leaves only. So I mixed up a 50/50 foliar spray of dilute H2O2 and 40hr old AACT (had a thin froth on top, smelt alright) and hit the babes up. Lights raised to 24" till they dry off, which could be awhile since its raining outside and RH is 97%.

Chester da Horse said:

I wish you could double like a post or something, thanks very much for that decision tree!

Sounds like I have a micro/trace deficiency - sulphur or iron being the likely culprits, magnesium lower down on the list as well. The only caveat would be if there is a lockout phenomenon or pH disturbance underlying the problem...

I hope the AACT I'm brewing at the moment will perk them up. The compost pile it came from was phenomenal, for interest sake I'll list what I put in:
6 months of kitchen scraps (mainly veggie scraps, bananas/citrus peels, tea leaves, coffee grounds etc)
Sugar cane straw ~30%
Lucerne/alfalfa hay ~40%
6 months worth of fish pond string-algae scum
a few liberal scoops of volcanic rock dust
a 20L bag of cow manure
handful of pelletised rooster manure
cooked off over 6 weeks with regular turning/watering.

This AACT gets bubbled for 48hrs and is then fortified with seasol/fulvic acid/volcanic rock dust prior to application - so I think the combination should cover all the trace elements...

Click to expand...

just be really really certain before adding anything to counter your current problems that it's not something else, water retention, drainage, etc.
in my experience it much much more likely that the problem lies somewhere else as opposed to a nutrient deficiency. Those charts can be helpful, but only if you first acknowledge that there are a myriad of other plant maladies that will manifest itself very similar to all kinds of deficiencies, gotta be careful. most common ones are being rootbound, too much solubles in the media, having acidity issues etc.

I tend to learn everything the hard way, even with great advice and mentorship , I just hoped an AACT is unlikely to burn or injure my plants if diluted down 50%.

Yes, your suggestions are all valid: I foresee root binding could be an issue (1.5 gal pots, could present as a nitrogen deficiency in rapid new growth right?) and I've experienced overwatering (i hope I know what it looks like). The leaf tips were definitely praying most mornings so I think drainage and watering have been optimised.

I've been very conservative with ECs, the only recent change up was the addition of fulvic acid to the tank at 1mL/L of 0.4% strength solution.

If its already broke, my usual response is to complicate it even more!

Chester da Horse said:

I tend to learn everything the hard way, even with great advice and mentorship , I just hoped an AACT is unlikely to burn or injure my plants if diluted down 50%.

Yes, your suggestions are all valid: I foresee root binding could be an issue (1.5 gal pots, could present as a nitrogen deficiency in rapid new growth right?) and I've experienced overwatering (i hope I know what it looks like). The leaf tips were definitely praying most mornings so I think drainage and watering have been optimised.

I've been very conservative with ECs, the only recent change up was the addition of fulvic acid to the tank at 1mL/L of 0.4% strength solution.

If its already broke, my usual response is to complicate it even more!

Click to expand...

a true AACT will not hurt your plants in the slightest, even at full strength.
BUT, many people go a lil nutso with AACTs, adding guanos, kelp, alfalfa, too much BSM, etc.
if it's JUST an AACT.
you are good. no problems at all.
After seeing that you have them in 1.5 gals though....
they need room man, I wouldn't do a damn thing except transplant.
I'd bet you my wallet they'd look beautiful within a week.

Yah, I got sold into this autopot grow setup: http://autopot.com.au/default.aspx?PageID=41135c8e-29bc-44af-ba77-9bc6c3d9612c. The pots are small I know.

It works a treat for automated watering (the bottom feed system allows the plants to dry out for a period then gravity feeds from the reservoir - no pumps/timers etc) but my hydro shop guy (who has been good overall) said people were able to grow (cannabis) to maturity in these small pots. I was dubious but he reassured me from experience and I went along. My grow is under the house and its a task carrying water down there, so filling a 30L tank once in a few weeks is much easier than regular watering.

I'm already into 3rd week of flower so I'm hesitant to transplant - I've decided my next grow will be in 14 litre organic soiless pots anyway, i'll build a damn railway track under the house to get the water to the cave.