A question about breeding with feminised pollen

Gianttee

Gianttee

Member
Hiya all from Aus!!

i have read about breeding but couldn't find anything about the crossing of two genes with feminised pollen.
just wondering about plant genetics, say you had a plant lets call it 'x' and it was a full female, you made it produce male pollen sacks with colloidal silver and decided to cross it with another female of a different genetics, lets call it 'y'.

do any of you home growers know if the genes combine to make a hybid? or do you just get seeds from both individual mothers? plants do strange things dont they haha.
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
You will get seed for a single strain.However, if you are not a real breeder it's almost a fool's errand. How would you even know if the plants had characteristics such as strong growth etc when you are using single phenotypes? Read about how breeders use and choose. Just my opinion.
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
Gianttee said:
ok cheers will do. lets just say that the strains both carried favourable genetics, the phenotypes were well known, just wondering will the off spring be a combination of the two?
Click to expand...

You will get a mixture of crosses determined by mendels theory of genetics and the dominance of certain genes.

Think of cannabis not as X and Y but more the triploid or higher form of genetics i.e. XXY or XYYYY etc. Its the leading theory why weed hermies so much.

A breeder would do this cross but produce 500 seeds, grow them all out and select the best one for what they wanted. They gro 500 to try and find the cross their hoping for amongst all the other possible crosses.

Its not that complicated but youll need to google 'triploid' and 'mendels peas' to get you started on basics.
:-)
 
Gianttee

Gianttee

Member
thanks kingrow1! only if it were possible to grow 500 haha. yeah was just wondering if the reversed female messed with genetics much, very interesting, thanks for all the feed back.
 
I.G.Rowdit

I.G.Rowdit

Well-Known Member
Gianttee said:
Hiya all from Aus!!

i have read about breeding but couldn't find anything about the crossing of two genes with feminised pollen.
just wondering about plant genetics, say you had a plant lets call it 'x' and it was a full female, you made it produce male pollen sacks with colloidal silver and decided to cross it with another female of a different genetics, lets call it 'y'.

do any of you home growers know if the genes combine to make a hybid? or do you just get seeds from both individual mothers? plants do strange things dont they haha.
Click to expand...
Gianttee,
You need to understand how sex works at the chromosome level. Plants normally have one pair of each chromosome in every cell nucleus. When plants form sex cells each pair of chromosomes splits so that the sex cells, pollen and ovules, each have ONE chromosome from each pair When pollination occurs the resulting seed gets 1/2 of its genetic material from its mother (one of each pair) and 1/2 from its father (one of each pair). So regardless of how the pollen was formed, i.e. normally or from a hermaphrodite, every seed will be half father and half mother. If the father and mother happen to be the same plant the same process takes place but the genetic diversity is considerably less. So, self pollinated hermaphrodite plants tend to produce seeds that result in a quite uniform seedling population while out crosses, i.e. male and female are different plants, tend to show a lot of diversity.

As to whether a plant is a 'hybrid' or not, it really depends on what you mean by hybrid. Technically a plant that is self pollinated is not a hybrid. But since the plant itself may be a hybrid you could say that all offspring will also be considered hybrids.
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
I.G.Rowdit said:
Gianttee,
You need to understand how sex works at the chromosome level. Plants normally have one pair of each chromosome in every cell nucleus. When plants form sex cells each pair of chromosomes splits so that the sex cells, pollen and ovules, each have ONE chromosome from each pair When pollination occurs the resulting seed gets 1/2 of its genetic material from its mother (one of each pair) and 1/2 from its father (one of each pair). So regardless of how the pollen was formed, i.e. normally or from a hermaphrodite, every seed will be half father and half mother. If the father and mother happen to be the same plant the same process takes place but the genetic diversity is considerably less. So, self pollinated hermaphrodite plants tend to produce seeds that result in a quite uniform seedling population while out crosses, i.e. male and female are different plants, tend to show a lot of diversity.

As to whether a plant is a 'hybrid' or not, it really depends on what you mean by hybrid. Technically a plant that is self pollinated is not a hybrid. But since the plant itself may be a hybrid you could say that all offspring will also be considered hybrids.
Click to expand...
Marijuana sex chromosomes are not XY but higher i.e.XYXXYYXY.
 
Gianttee

Gianttee

Member
super interesting thanks everyone. should of studied biology, i guess reading all this info is self educating anyway!
 
I.G.Rowdit

I.G.Rowdit

Well-Known Member
Giantee

I feel like I should try to explain this point a bit better. It is really easy stuff and does not require a lot of study to understand the basics.

Sex is determined by the presence or absence of a y chromosome. A plant with at least one y chromosome is phenotypically and genotypically a male. Phenotype means the appearance of the plant, genotype means the genetic make up of the plant. For the purposes of sex determination only the x and y chromosomes are of interest. Plants or seeds that have only x-chromosomes are females, plants with at least one y-chromosome are males.

With respect to Kingrow1, polyploidy plays no part in what you were asking about. Only one y-chromosome is required to make a plant phenotypically a male or a seed genotypically a male. Extra y-chromosomes that result from polyploidy make no difference. Imagine a room with a dozen light switches that control the same light, after one switch is turned on it makes no difference if any of the others are on or off.

You asked about a female plant that had been treated with an ethylene inhibitor to induce hermaphrodism. Since by definition a female plant has no y-chromosomes, there are no y-chromosomes to pass on to the pollen. So the pollen produced by a female hermaphrodite contains only x-chromosomes. Pollinating a female plant with pollen that contains only x-chromosomes results in seeds that contain only x-chromosomes. Such seeds are called 'feminized' in the cannabis community and gynoecious in botany. So in your example, x pollinated by y would result in feminized seeds, no males would result from the seeds. The seedlings would be a mix of the characteristics of each parent.

Hope this clears things up a bit. Feel free to ask a specific question. The only stupid question is the one unasked.
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
If a female plant hermies it was quite obviously not totally female, most strains can hermie.

Explain hermie in xy for not treated plant?

How can a non treated female make male and visa versa, i thought you were either XY or XX by your definition but i see plenty of nannas and female flowers on the opposite Cannabis sex.
 
Gianttee

Gianttee

Member
Sweet thanks IG Rowdit, love all info, i just find it very interesting how a female can be reversed into making so called male parts but contain completely female pollen. And that female pollen can then fertilise another female plant, or itself. blows my mind haha.

My question has been throughly answered thanks, knowing now that you can still cross different strains to get mixed babies genetically is what i was wondering. i was afraid that the reversed female pollen may of lacked enough genetic data to create a mix between the two strains involved.

i guess if i had anymore specific questions is, If i used the pollen again on the off spring of the two parents, would the second generation have more tendencies towards the original plant that was the pollen donor?
 
BM9AGS

BM9AGS

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
If a female plant hermies it was quite obviously not totally female, most strains can hermie.

Explain hermie in xy for not treated plant?

How can a non treated female make male and visa versa, i thought you were either XY or XX by your definition but i see plenty of nannas and female flowers on the opposite Cannabis sex.
Click to expand...
Humans hermie. Can someone explain that? Like that Bruce gener thing and what not......

On a serious note thanks for the detailed information you two.
 
I.G.Rowdit

I.G.Rowdit

Well-Known Member
Gianttee said:
Sweet thanks IG Rowdit, love all info, i just find it very interesting how a female can be reversed into making so called male parts but contain completely female pollen. And that female pollen can then fertilise another female plant, or itself. blows my mind haha.

My question has been throughly answered thanks, knowing now that you can still cross different strains to get mixed babies genetically is what i was wondering. i was afraid that the reversed female pollen may of lacked enough genetic data to create a mix between the two strains involved.

i guess if i had anymore specific questions is, If i used the pollen again on the off spring of the two parents, would the second generation have more tendencies towards the original plant that was the pollen donor?
Click to expand...
Thanks for the kind words. In answer to your question, yes. What you describe is often called 'line breeding or 'inbreeding' meaning parents are mated with children or siblings with siblings until some characteristic is fixed or inbreeding problems are encountered. Imagine that you are developing a new dog breed. You want the the coat of an Australian cattle dog and the body shape of a German shepard. So you mate a cattle dog to a shepard. Chances are some of the puppies will look sort of like what you are looking for, but not exactly. So you mate the two that are closest to what you seek. With each succeeding generation you pick the parents of the next generation by choosing the puppies that are closest to your ideal. Eventually, you will arrive at your new breed, call it a Giantee hound. You then maintain the breed by only mating genuine Giantee hounds to each other.
 
I.G.Rowdit

I.G.Rowdit

Well-Known Member
BM9AGS said:
Humans hermie. Can someone explain that? Like that Bruce gener thing and what not......

On a serious note thanks for the detailed information you two.
Click to expand...
Bruce is a transexual, not a hermaphrodite. In humans a hermaphrodite is an individual with genitalia of both sexes. A common cause of human hermaphrodites is a female fetus that is exposed to higher than normal levels of testosterone during development. The testosterone causes the development of male organs. Usually the clitoris is greatly enlarged giving the impression of both male and female genitalia. That is why testosterone topical preparations should not come in contact with pregnant females. Even a tiny increase in circulation testosterone can affect development.
 
I.G.Rowdit

I.G.Rowdit

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
If a female plant hermies it was quite obviously not totally female, most strains can hermie.

Explain hermie in xy for not treated plant?

How can a non treated female make male and visa versa, i thought you were either XY or XX by your definition but i see plenty of nannas and female flowers on the opposite Cannabis sex.
Click to expand...
Kingrow1,
I did not explain this well or completely, my apologies. Here is what I hope is a better and more detailed explanation.

Let's start at the bottom line. The x and y chromosomes have nothing to do with hermaphrodites.

It is natural to think that somehow a female that becomes a hermaphrodite is responding to some hidden y-chromosome or that an x-chromosome somehow becomes a y-chromosome. Not so, hermaphrodism is the result of growth regulators.

Logically, the y-chromosome can't have anything to do with female hermaphrodites because a female has only x-chromosomes so nothing that happens to a female, including hermaphrodism, can be the result of a y-chromosome, because there aren't any.

From this same train of logic the presence alone of an x-chromosome can't be the cause of hermaphrodism because all female plants have x-chromosomes but not all female plants become hermaphrodites.

Hermaphrodism is caused by growth regulators. Also known as hormones or auxins these are substances produced by the plant itself. These substances affect growth in many ways. You are probably familiar with some. Indole butyric acid (IBA) is growth regulator that stimulates root formation. IBA is the most common rooting 'hormone'.

Another you might be familiar with is Gibberellins (GAs). These substances regulate a lot of plant activity such as stem length, seed germination and dormancy.

Female Cannabis hermaphrodism can occur when the growth regulator ethylene is inhibited by substances such a silver nitrate or colloidal silver. Ethylene keeps a female female. As the effect of ethylene is reduced or eliminated females can respond by producing male characteristics such as male flowers and male growth patterns.

Hermaphrodism can be triggered by a lot of things, not just ethylene inhibitors. Many forms of stress can do it. Before ethylene inhibitors became common growers would starve plants, change light patterns, vary temperature, vary ph and many other things in the hopes of producing hermaphrodism. All of these techniques produce some sort of 'shock' to the plant that disrupts the existing growth regulator production, growth regulator receptors or both.

A form of this shock that is familiar to everyone is the move from 18/6 to 12/12. Why do you think this results in flowering? Because the different day/night length causes different growth regulators to either be produced or inhibited.

Producing hermaphrodites is just one of many ways we manipulate growth regulators to influence plant behavior. pinching, topping, LST and SOG training are all examples of manipulating growth regulators to defeat a tendency known as 'apical dominance', the tendency to grow with a single upright stem and a few much smaller side branches.
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
I.G.Rowdit said:
Kingrow1,
I did not explain this well or completely, my apologies. Here is what I hope is a better and more detailed explanation.

Let's start at the bottom line. The x and y chromosomes have nothing to do with hermaphrodites.

It is natural to think that somehow a female that becomes a hermaphrodite is responding to some hidden y-chromosome or that an x-chromosome somehow becomes a y-chromosome. Not so, hermaphrodism is the result of growth regulators.

Logically, the y-chromosome can't have anything to do with female hermaphrodites because a female has only x-chromosomes so nothing that happens to a female, including hermaphrodism, can be the result of a y-chromosome, because there aren't any.

From this same train of logic the presence alone of an x-chromosome can't be the cause of hermaphrodism because all female plants have x-chromosomes but not all female plants become hermaphrodites.

Hermaphrodism is caused by growth regulators. Also known as hormones or auxins these are substances produced by the plant itself. These substances affect growth in many ways. You are probably familiar with some. Indole butyric acid (IBA) is growth regulator that stimulates root formation. IBA is the most common rooting 'hormone'.

Another you might be familiar with is Gibberellins (GAs). These substances regulate a lot of plant activity such as stem length, seed germination and dormancy.

Female Cannabis hermaphrodism can occur when the growth regulator ethylene is inhibited by substances such a silver nitrate or colloidal silver. Ethylene keeps a female female. As the effect of ethylene is reduced or eliminated females can respond by producing male characteristics such as male flowers and male growth patterns.

Hermaphrodism can be triggered by a lot of things, not just ethylene inhibitors. Many forms of stress can do it. Before ethylene inhibitors became common growers would starve plants, change light patterns, vary temperature, vary ph and many other things in the hopes of producing hermaphrodism. All of these techniques produce some sort of 'shock' to the plant that disrupts the existing growth regulator production, growth regulator receptors or both.

A form of this shock that is familiar to everyone is the move from 18/6 to 12/12. Why do you think this results in flowering? Because the different day/night length causes different growth regulators to either be produced or inhibited.

Producing hermaphrodites is just one of many ways we manipulate growth regulators to influence plant behavior. pinching, topping, LST and SOG training are all examples of manipulating growth regulators to defeat a tendency known as 'apical dominance', the tendency to grow with a single upright stem and a few much smaller side branches.
Click to expand...
No need to apologise to me, i do come across harsh sometimes but if you write a good response then surely its me who should apologise.

I agree with your theory in that sex is not pre determined by just x or y and other factors are in play. I have read this in recent cannabis studies, possibly a leading theory atm.

Can you explain the differences between monecious and dioecious marijuana, this was slightly harder to think of in practical terms and theres always mention of a true female and male?

++Rep for you
 
Gianttee

Gianttee

Member
I.G.Rowdit said:
Thanks for the kind words. In answer to your question, yes. What you describe is often called 'line breeding or 'inbreeding' meaning parents are mated with children or siblings with siblings until some characteristic is fixed or inbreeding problems are encountered. Imagine that you are developing a new dog breed. You want the the coat of an Australian cattle dog and the body shape of a German shepard. So you mate a cattle dog to a shepard. Chances are some of the puppies will look sort of like what you are looking for, but not exactly. So you mate the two that are closest to what you seek. With each succeeding generation you pick the parents of the next generation by choosing the puppies that are closest to your ideal. Eventually, you will arrive at your new breed, call it a Giantee hound. You then maintain the breed by only mating genuine Giantee hounds to each other.
Click to expand...
haha you're smart funny and intuitive at the same time. ive actually been trying to breed a new breed of dog!! but there black and gold retrievers! maybe ill call it the gianttee hound! in the photo the one behind is the mother half black half gold and the one closer is the daughter 3 qtrs gold 1 qtr black. mum mated with another gold. they have golden characteristics with black coats, hoping the next litter will have more marbling in it!

i know this isnt a dog breeding forum sorry if any dont like it.

again thanks for the information, fascinating!!

What sort of genetic problems would you get from in breeding plants? a friend also told me you can get good mutant strains from inbreeding too, do you know or have heard of this happening?
 

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I.G.Rowdit

I.G.Rowdit

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
No need to apologise to me, i do come across harsh sometimes but if you write a good response then surely its me who should apologise.

I agree with your theory in that sex is not pre determined by just x or y and other factors are in play. I have read this in recent cannabis studies, possibly a leading theory atm.

Can you explain the differences between monecious and dioecious marijuana, this was slightly harder to think of in practical terms and theres always mention of a true female and male?

++Rep for you
Click to expand...
No need to apologize. I knew you were not trying to pick a fight.

In my early days on the internet I used a confrontational, put-down style on message boards. The tone of my answers contained the hidden message that the original poster had no idea of what they were talking about and most of what they had to say was just plain stupid. It took me a while to realize that that approach was totally counter productive. While it might make me feel good that I showed how smart I was and/or how dumb the other guy was, no real knowledge transfer took place. A discussion that would have benefited both of us quickly degraded into a pissing contest where there were no winners.

Now days, I use a very pedantic, teacher-like tone when answering questions. If my answer does not seem to resonate with the questioner I try to figure out where I went wrong and restate the answer to cover what I missed or give an example that hopefully makes a complicated point more clear. In other words, now I'm the stupid one for not providing an understandable answer.

There is no shortage of people looking for a fight. I just don't continue the conversation and they look for a fight somewhere else.

Enough of the warm fuzzies, in answer to your question.

Being even more pedantic than usual, 'monoecious' describes plants that bear separate male and female reproductive structures on the same plant. Examples are: melons, grasses and walnut. 'Dioecious' describes plants that bear male and female reproductive structures on different individuals. Examples are: cannabis, holly and asparagus. There is a third category, 'perfect' where male and female reproductive structures are contained in each individual flower. Examples are: petunia, magnolia and tomato.

I take these meanings to apply to the species in the wild. So, while a Cannabis hermaphrodite produces separate male and female reproductive structures, I think the proper terminology is to call Cannabis dioecious. In other words, I think for Cannabis as we cultivate it, the terminology is not sufficient to describe the various forms of the plant. I consider monoecious cannabis to be a dioecious plant with seriously screwed up growth regulators. Joking aside, it is probably possible to breed for spontaneous hermaphroditism in females and produce what is essentially a monoecious strain of cannabis.

This is my personal opinion, I'm not sure if mainstream Botany takes a different view.
 
I.G.Rowdit

I.G.Rowdit

Well-Known Member
Gianttee said:
haha you're smart funny and intuitive at the same time. ive actually been trying to breed a new breed of dog!! but there black and gold retrievers! maybe ill call it the gianttee hound! in the photo the one behind is the mother half black half gold and the one closer is the daughter 3 qtrs gold 1 qtr black. mum mated with another gold. they have golden characteristics with black coats, hoping the next litter will have more marbling in it!

i know this isnt a dog breeding forum sorry if any dont like it.

again thanks for the information, fascinating!!

What sort of genetic problems would you get from in breeding plants? a friend also told me you can get good mutant strains from inbreeding too, do you know or have heard of this happening?
Click to expand...

I guess I'm now a mind reader. A black and gold marbled retriever would be great. I'll buy one when you fix the strain.

As you stated, many genetic problems in plants (and animals) are the result of inbreeding. You are probably familiar with breed specific dog problems. Off the top of my head, blindness and deafness in Dalmations, wobbler syndrome in great danes and hip displasia in practically everything.

Plants seem a lot more resistant to such inbreeding problems. I recently read that an inbreeding study of tomato went for 20 generations of inbreeding before seeing any undesired side effects. You can think of inbreeding as a process of eliminating genes. You might be eliminating something you deem undesirable. As an example, suppose you are trying to develop a thornless tea rose. As you produce successive generations by crossing the most thornless of your seedlings you are also inadvertantly eliminating the genes that are associated with the gene that causes thorns. Imagine that the thorn gene is associated with a gene that provides immunity to leaf spot fungus. Eventually, you might produce a thornless rose that cannot be grown anywhere that leaf spot fungus is endemic.

Mutations happen spontaneously in plants and animals. Inbreeding may provide a situation where formerly recessive genes can be expressed but this is not technically mutation. Generally, breeders inbreed to fix characteristics not to induce new ones.
 
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