550W Led vs. 20x Green-o-Matic Autos

newworldicon said:

I agree about the idea of a few panels to create a bathing of overlapping light, i suppose time will tell..about 5wweks or so. Funny thing is when you are used to using hps you feel the heat, the power etc. and get used to it then along comes the LED and it feels almost weak but it is obviously a very different type of light to what we are used to you know. It just atkes getting used to and once one has good result under the belt then all questioning goes out of the window LOL.

Have you looked at mine on the website, it is a true 436W i think. Have a look if you dont mind and tell me what you think. So far \i cannot complain to be honest.

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I like the product, no complaints except they don't appear to have made the move to using the tech that makes it so when 1 LED dies you only lose power to that 1 LED. That was a big reason why I bought from the company I did, at the time only 1 other company did it (but the one I chose used 3w diodes instead of 1w)

Kilbot said:

the panels im using now are 357 magnums. the actual draw is less than that ya. me saying im adding another 500 watts is just the rating on the blackstar i ordered... when you talk about 600 watt panels you arent talking about the draw...just the combined number of 3 watt diodes?

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Yeah I was talking about 500-600 combined being better than a 600w HPS in a 4x4. Your blackstar 500w definitely doesn't use that much, but its hard to tell how many diodes are used from the pics (info that should be known without having to call anyone) my gut tells me it should definitely be less than 400w if they won't tell people how many diodes are in it.

Kilbot said:

well its going to be like this:

^^ [357 mag]^^^ [500 blackstar] ^^^ [357 mag
|________________4x8 table___________________|

and yes its @#$%ing expencive but i think its nessesary to grow big....i have my plants pretty close together though

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Yeah dude blackstar basically lied, how much did they charge you? 500w panel only has 168 3w diodes run an average of 1.5w Your new 500w panel with fans would only use 270w (fans are probably 18w or so). Also those 357s according only use 180w

So what looked like well over 1100 w may only be as little as 630w, that said, even if its only about 600w it should still do better than 600w of HID, I imagine the quality of light coming from the 357 is better than the blackstar but I wouldn't bet any of my unemployed money on it)

jdizzle22 said:

I like the product, no complaints except they don't appear to have made the move to using the tech that makes it so when 1 LED dies you only lose power to that 1 LED. That was a big reason why I bought from the company I did, at the time only 1 other company did it (but the one I chose used 3w diodes instead of 1w)



Yeah I was talking about 500-600 combined being better than a 600w HPS in a 4x4. Your blackstar 500w definitely doesn't use that much, but its hard to tell how many diodes are used from the pics (info that should be known without having to call anyone) my gut tells me it should definitely be less than 400w if they won't tell people how many diodes are in it.

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So you think it would be suitable for a 4x4 space then...what brand are you using again?

jdizzle22 said:

Yeah I was talking about 500-600 combined being better than a 600w HPS in a 4x4. Your blackstar 500w definitely doesn't use that much, but its hard to tell how many diodes are used from the pics (info that should be known without having to call anyone) my gut tells me it should definitely be less than 400w if they won't tell people how many diodes are in it.

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i spoke to the guy who does most of the sales for them i think and he told me its 500 watts of true 3 watt crees ...if its not ill send it back.... lighthouse/blackstar seems to be legit though. theres no money in lying to people on the internet and having people trash your product in the forums imo. the 357's aqre a pretty good product as well but a little bit higher price point. i could probably carry these PK babies all the way to harvest on just the 2 but i feel like more is better.

Kilbot said:

i spoke to the guy who does most of the sales for them i think and he told me its 500 watts of true 3 watt crees ...if its not ill send it back.... lighthouse/blackstar seems to be legit though. theres no money in lying to people on the internet and having people trash your product in the forums imo. the 357's aqre a pretty good product as well but a little bit higher price point. i could probably carry these PK babies all the way to harvest on just the 2 but i feel like more is better.

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It says right on the 357 selling page near the bottom they only use about 180w. And you can do the math for yourself like I did, find some pics/videos of the new blackstar 500w and it definitely is misleading They get their 500w from going "Oh hey the panel has 168x3w diodes = about 500w!" Just like they did the same thing for all their other panels (almost every LED company does this, a few will tell you the true wattage in the fine print like they do for the 357, but most won't tell until you call and maybe not even then). Also: I've read in forums that most companies that claim cree mislead because only the white or partial amount of the LEDs are cree (limited number of wavelengths available from cree). Except for the companies that seem to claim they only use cree and their panels are almost entirely white?

*To answer Newworldicon* I am using growledhydro. Their pics are way out of date on their site, here is what mine looks like. The feature they have that sets them apart the most is that only 1 LED can lose power at a time. These pics are of my 395w which is basically the same as the new 500w (they both have the same number of diodes/3w LEDs), but mine run an average of 1.5w while the new ones run 1.9-2 because LED tech in general improved very rapidly towards the end of 2010 and the start of 2011.

jdizzle22 said:

It says right on the 357 selling page near the bottom they only use about 180w. And you can do the math for yourself like I did, find some pics/videos of the new blackstar 500w and it definitely is misleading They get their 500w from going "Oh hey the panel has 168x3w diodes = about 500w!" Just like they did the same thing for all their other panels (almost every LED company does this, a few will tell you the true wattage in the fine print like they do for the 357)

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um well the actual draw is from under clocking the diodes as there is dimminishing returns on the amount of brightness produced: energy used ratio right...

what brands of LED lights rate their lights as true wattage?

jdizzle22 said:

It says right on the 357 selling page near the bottom they only use about 180w. And you can do the math for yourself like I did, find some pics/videos of the new blackstar 500w and it definitely is misleading They get their 500w from going "Oh hey the panel has 168x3w diodes = about 500w!" Just like they did the same thing for all their other panels (almost every LED company does this, a few will tell you the true wattage in the fine print like they do for the 357, but most won't tell until you call and maybe not even then). Also there is no way blackstars 500w panels uses all crees

*To answer Newworldicon* I am using growledhydro. Their pics are way out of date on their site, here is what mine looks like. The feature they have that sets them apart the most is that only 1 LED can lose power at a time. These pics are of my 395w which is basically the same as the new 500w (they both have the same number of diodes/3w LEDs), but mine run an average of 1.5w while the new ones run 1.9-2 because LED tech in general improved very rapidly towards the end of 2010 and the start of 2011.

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So i am running a stronger unit then, i shall expect some results lol. I also notice that the colour that mine emits is different to you guys, yours are more purple and mine is more red/pinkish so somewhat different.

Pointing out the blown LED's is a valid point, i just hope mine doesn't although Ben at Hydrohut has a policy of replacing a unit even before you send your faulty one back so that you dont watse too much time with lost light, thats kinda cool plus he gave me free shipping to the UK so i cant complain. I always felt they were the best value for money at that size when compared to stealthgrow or the other big expensive units.

Thanks for the input to everyone in this thread, most appreciated guys.

Kilbot said:

um well the actual draw is from under clocking the diodes as there is dimminishing returns on the amount of brightness produced: energy used ratio right...

what brands of LED lights rate their lights as true wattage?

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well growledhydro is very damned close, they actually rate them for 5-9 watts less than they actually use so that their name can end with a 0.

Hey do not defend them, they mislead you plain and simple because they know people will assume that it uses as much power as they named it by and not bother to look at the pics and do the math (because most people don't know how the math works). They should tell people that info along with how much power it actually uses. A 500w panel should pull 500w from your wall socket give or take a few watts. A 500w from blackstar only uses about 270w, while a 500w from growledhydro uses about 505w.

newworldicon said:

So i am running a stronger unit then, i shall expect some results lol. I also notice that the colour that mine emits is different to you guys, yours are more purple and mine is more red/pinkish so somewhat different.

Pointing out the blown LED's is a valid point, i just hope mine doesn't although Ben at Hydrohut has a policy of replacing a unit even before you send your faulty one back so that you dont watse too much time with lost light, thats kinda cool plus he gave me free shipping to the UK so i cant complain. I always felt they were the best value for money at that size when compared to stealthgrow or the other big expensive units.

Thanks for the input to everyone in this thread, most appreciated guys.

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What do you mean stronger unit? Accourding the hydroponics hut website your light only uses "Power Consumption: 385 - 420w (full illumination)" which is less than 550w. But I think it might be an old typo. I sent them an email asking for clarification of the KWH rating for their '550w' panel

Yeah that panel is mostly white, the white LEDs on my panel at least put off 3 different wavelengths (a red, blue, and green). I have a total of 12 wavelengths with lens angles of 90 so the colors will look and blend differently especially since there are so many more

jdizzle22 said:

What do you mean stronger unit? Accourding the hydroponics hut website your light only uses "Power Consumption: 385 - 420w (full illumination)" which is less than 550w. But I think it must be an old typo? I sent them an email asking for clarification of the KWH rating for their '550w' panel

Yeah that panel is mostly white, the white LEDs on my panel supposedly put off 3 different wavelengths (a red, blue, and green). I have a total of 12 wavelengths with lens angles of 90 so the colors will look and blend differently especially since there are so many more

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I think the 420W at full illumination is correct unless it was a typo, i did not know yours was at 500W so that should make yours more powerful by +/-70W. How much was yours again and do you have any completed grows i can see? Thanks

newworldicon said:

I think the 420W at full illumination is correct unless it was a typo, i did not know yours was at 500W so that should make yours more powerful by +/-70W. How much was yours again and do you have any completed grows i can see? Thanks

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Oh man now you're as confused as I am! No my panel only uses 395w, it has the same number of 3w LEDs as the new growledhydro 500w (which uses about 505w) but mine runs each at a lower wattage. Your 550w panel uses 420w give or tax up to several watts, the blackstar 500w uses about 270w, and the 357 magnums use about 180w. I have yet to complete a grow with my LED as I've only had it since early February (I've used it to flower 8/9 weeks of 12/12 on the last grow and 2 months of veg on this grow flipping to 12/12 today). I can show you pics, do you want them here or in a private message?

When I throw those numbers around that includes the wattage going into cooling fans built into the unit*

jdizzle22 said:

Oh man now you're as confused as I am! No my panel only uses 395w, it has the same number of 3w LEDs as the new growledhydro 500w (which uses about 505w) but mine runs each at a lower wattage. Your 550w panel uses 420w give or tax up to several watts, the blackstar 500w uses about 270w, and the 357 magnums use about 180w. I have yet to complete a grow with my LED as I've only had it since early February (I've used it to flower 8/9 weeks of 12/12 on the last grow and 2 months of veg on this grow flipping to 12/12 today). I can show you pics, do you want them here or in a private message?

When I throw those numbers around that includes the wattage going into cooling fans built into the unit*

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LOL now I am confused too, feel free to chuck the pics up here, i am not difficult about threads and territory, the more the better, go for it!!!!....

EDIT: I get it now, you are using a different panel to the growled 500W. It does sound very good though..

jdizzle22 said:

well growledhydro is very damned close, they actually rate them for 5-9 watts less than they actually use so that their name can end with a 0.

Hey do not defend them, they mislead you plain and simple because they know people will assume that it uses as much power as they named it by and not bother to look at the pics and do the math (because most people don't know how the math works). They should tell people that info along with how much power it actually uses. A 500w panel should pull 500w from your wall socket give or take a few watts. A 500w from blackstar only uses about 270w, while a 500w from growledhydro uses about 505w.

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yeah thats cool i know what you mean... i think that its semantics though really if we are talking about a growstealth 600 watt light that uses 266 3 watt crees and costs 1200 draws 550 watts OR the 500 watt blackstar that uses 168 3 watt crees and draws 270 watts and costs 500 bucks....i know what you mean about the marketing of the names but if it does the job then why worry about the draw.... also if you need 600 watts draw to cover a 4x4 area then why switch at all? LED use is as much about saving energy costs as it is about heat and bud quality?

Kilbot said:

yeah thats cool i know what you mean... i think that its semantics though really if we are talking about a growstealth 600 watt light that uses 266 3 watt crees and costs 1200 draws 550 watts OR the 500 watt blackstar that uses 168 3 watt crees and draws 270 watts and costs 500 bucks....i know what you mean about the marketing of the names but if it does the job then why worry about the draw.... also if you need 600 watts draw to cover a 4x4 area then why switch at all? LED use is as much about saving energy costs as it is about heat and bud quality?

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What you say is true about electricity consumption but it is also about more manageable heat, no heat signature, better resin production and mostly, equal or better yield....the last is the most important for me really and frankly if I draw the same leccie as a HPS but get all the other benefits I am very happy and feel it is worth it.

Kilbot said:

yeah thats cool i know what you mean... i think that its semantics though really if we are talking about a growstealth 600 watt light that uses 266 3 watt crees and costs 1200 draws 550 watts OR the 500 watt blackstar that uses 168 3 watt crees and draws 270 watts and costs 500 bucks....i know what you mean about the marketing of the names but if it does the job then why worry about the draw.... also if you need 600 watts draw to cover a 4x4 area then why switch at all? LED use is as much about saving energy costs as it is about heat and bud quality?

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Oh sorry, I was confused (thinking of 50w per sq foot HID standard and what it would take in LED to match that for your space) if you're only looking to replace a 600w HID aim for 400w of LED from a good company (actual LED cannabis growers claim up to 30-40% bigger yields watt for watt over HPS even though LED companies often make outrageous claims like their 300w being as good as a 1000w HPS (LED may be way more efficient at producing useable plant light than HID, but you will not get yields that are 3-4x bigger watt for watt than HID like many LED companies claim (when they say things like they're 300w is equal to a 1000w HPS). 3-4x is unrealistic, 1.5 is much more reasonable. If your confident in your ability to grow then you could go with half as many watts of good LED than hps

blah blah blah, 400 total actual watts (even counting fans if you want) of LED from a good company should work as well (if not slightly better) than 600w of HPS depending on how you grow. Also, it would seem watt for watt that LED produces 75% or less heat than HPS

if it were up to me companies would tell you exactly how much wattage the entire unit uses (so you can figure out its operating costs), then they should also tell you how many LEDs are used and what wattage they are run at (or at least the total wattage actually run through the leds). Unfortunately most companies only tell you what the result of the following equation: # of diodes multiplied by their max rating. That is misleading because they can't run them at max. What a few companies do is tell you the true wattage including the fans give or tax a few watts for name sake and killowattmeter error

This flowering pic comes with an explanation. It was taken the day of harvest, at 9 weeks of 12/12 (under a 400w HPS the first week). Only 1 of the 3 strains in that pic was rated to finish in less than 10 weeks (and usually those ratings are a week or 2 short anyway). I was stupid and cut their life short because I wanted to use the tent as the dry space (so that meant cutting everything down), and I wanted to get started on my my next grow since I made a batch of super soil and got new soil additives. I rationalized ending this one early to make sure my patient still had a supply to fall back on, and so I could get started on how much I would need to make her Rick Simpson cannabis cure. This grow I will really see what my light is capable of by giving the plants the time they want to flower I have definitely noticed it is way better (perhaps too much better) than my 400w HPS in veg, and it was definitely made a higher quality product even though it didn't get as much time to flower (WAY WAY WAY more trichomes than with my 400w HPS). To be fair though, its like I'm now growing with atleast 600w HPS in a 2.5 x 2.5 space and its only 70-75 degrees in there

jdizzle22 said:

Oh sorry, I was confused (thinking of 50w per sq foot HID standard and what it would take in LED to match that for your space) if you're only looking to replace a 600w HID aim for 400w of LED from a good company (actual LED cannabis growers claim up to 30-40% bigger yields watt for watt over HPS even though LED companies often make outrageous claims like their 300w being as good as a 1000w HPS (LED may be way more efficient at producing useable plant light than HID, but you will not get yields that are 3-4x bigger watt for watt than HID like many LED companies claim (when they say things like they're 300w is equal to a 1000w HPS). 3-4x is unrealistic, 1.5 is much more reasonable. If your confident in your ability to grow then you could go with half as many watts of good LED than hps



blah blah blah, 400 total actual watts (even counting fans if you want) of LED from a good company should work as well (if not slightly better) than 600w of HPS depending on how you grow. Also, it would seem watt for watt that LED produces 75% or less heat than HPS

if it were up to me companies would tell you exactly how much wattage the entire unit uses (so you can figure out its operating costs), then they should also tell you how many LEDs are used and what wattage they are run at (or at least the total wattage actually run through the leds). Unfortunately most companies only tell you what the result of the following equation: # of diodes multiplied by their max rating. That is misleading because they can't run them at max

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yeah i hear you. the part im concerned with is the claims of all the grow journals that use these lower wattage lights getting the results they claim....im happy with what im doing atm but we shall see come weigh in time...anyway NWI sorry for jacking your thread

holy mother those plants look sweet.

Looks like your LEDs are killing it!! Looking great mate. subbed I'll be coming along for the ride

Kilbot said:

um well the actual draw is from under clocking the diodes as there is dimminishing returns on the amount of brightness produced: energy used ratio right...

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Actually, it's from OVERclocking. All these LED grow lights have 1w dies only. They get their 2W, 3W or higher rating by being able to run the 3w for a very brief moment in testing. Actual operating power depends on the cooling capabilities and the trade off the manufacturer makes on reliability and lifespan of the product. Better cooling allows more reliable and higher power delivery to the die.

I suggest reading user "astroastro" posts. This guy knows what he's talking about.

medicine21 said:

Actually, it's from OVERclocking. All these LED grow lights have 1w dies only. They get their 2W, 3W or higher rating by being able to run the 3w for a very brief moment in testing. Actual operating power depends on the cooling capabilities and the trade off the manufacturer makes on reliability and lifespan of the product. Better cooling allows more reliable and higher power delivery to the die.

I suggest reading user "astroastro" posts. This guy knows what he's talking about.

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How I've head it explained was that basically they are reliably tested/pylsed of a max wattage like 1w or 2w or 3w, and depending on the manufacturer of the LED and the wavelength you can run it safely at a certain wattage with the fans and heat sink used for cooling. It would seem 3w were generally 1.5w ish and are now becoming 2w ish for the best (ex: 252 3w diode GLH including fans used 395w, then the 2nd generation also had 252 3w diodes but with fans used about 505w (round down namesake 500w for... style?)