23 Days, Yellowing Fan Leaves

smokeymarine said:

1 out of 5 plants looks much paler than the rest. It is very uniformly pale. It was getting fish emulsion in veg about every other watering. Went into flowering about 18 days ago switched to FF Big Bloom.

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I think I can take this one. Here is a little bit about FF Big Bloom:

Guaranteed Analysis:
TOTAL NITROGEN (N)................ 0.01%
0.002% Ammoniacal Nitrogen
0.001% Nitrate Nitrogen
0.005% Water Soluble Nitrogen
0.002% Water Insoluble Nitrogen
AVAILABLE PHOSPHATE (P205).... 0.3%
SOLUBLE POTASH (K20)................ 0.7%

You're plants are starving. I am not an expert on plant nutrition but since they are probably deficient in everything given the content of Big Bloom alone, maybe a 20-20-20 started at half or even 3/4 strength might be appropriate?

Uncle Ben said:

Correct. That would correct the N deficiency and such foods are usually high in chelated micros, an added bonus. Another option is to scratch in some blood meal into the soil. Most high N foods contain a combo of urea, ammonical type salts (i.e. ammonium sulfate or nitrate) and/or nitrates (potassium or calcium nitrate). Look at the 10-30-20. It's fairly high in nitrates for the N source. Kicker is it's about NPK ratios and this is where 90% of noobs go wrong. They can sure as hell talk cute bottle names but few know what's in them, or even care LOL.

Correct, it depends on the urea amount, and Jack's 20-20-20 N source is pure urea. Might work good as a foliar spray though. Urea has to be converted into nitrate form before it can be used by the plant. Time of conversion depends on the microbe colony and soil temps.

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i just want to say that guys like ben make forums wiser , if we all were doing our homework like him the "mj plant problem" section would be the 1/3 of what it is now , this site needs more of these types of guys

i just want to add that urea contains fairly high amounts of nitrogen (nh3-4 ) that put a lot of stress on the roots and u should be really cautius on the 1st couple aplications until the nitrobacteria ( microbe colonies) settle for good , that takes about 2 weeks after that the colonies are able to brake down ammonia in a matter of hours

heres an aquarium prospective of the cyrcle of nitrogen , somes may find it usefull http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html dont get afraid as fishes and invertebrates are far more sensitive than plants

All that ph this ph that, uncle Bens wheres its at!

psyte said:

Ben, I forgot to ask you... how often and at what concentration do you feed Jack's? I know I'll need to adjust as I go according to the plant's specific needs, I'm just curious about your general recommendation and I haven't seen that mentioned in any of your articles I've read so far. I've been feeding according to the directions at 1/4 tsp per gal every watering.

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Since this thread has gone on for a while, I should have also reiterated that I did not start feeding this plant ANY nutes until a couple days before the problem started (as it looked okay until then and I assumed the miracle grow was extremely hot when it apparently wasn't). Had I been feeding all along, I would know full strength is not enough. But as it stands I'm still not sure and want to avoid swinging in the other direction and burning the plant.

Btw Ben, just got through reading your topping technique thread. There is no way I'm ever messing with LST again. What a hassle. I have some seedlings going now that I'm going to try this on. I ordered Mel Frank's book too, looks really good. Thanks for all the tips bro, appreciate it.

psyte said:

Btw Ben, just got through reading your topping technique thread. There is no way I'm ever messing with LST again. What a hassle. I have some seedlings going now that I'm going to try this on. I ordered Mel Frank's book too, looks really good. Thanks for all the tips bro, appreciate it.

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Yeah, me too.

Here was my first attempt ever at the UB method, hope you don't mind me sharing.

Ok so trying to get to the root of my problem, I'd like a little help from anyone who can help me understand this better...

I just realized that what I did with this plant - as far as feeding goes - was based on an assumption. I've been re-reading info on when to start feeding my seedlings and I realized that I first read about not feeding plants for at least two weeks in soil when reading about seedlings. I don't recall seeing this info in any other context, but I could be wrong.

Anyhow, this came in to play when I first got the clone at 7" I repotted it from a solo cup to a 1 gal container using Miracle Gro. Now I assumed this plant would not need to be fed for at least two weeks and decided to err on the side of caution and make it 3 (especially knowing the soil had time release nutes). Well as it turned out, 2 weeks later the plant was already clearly getting big enough for flower so I repotted it into a 3 gal and let it veg for 1 more week before switching to 12/12. Because I repotted it again, into 3 times the volume of soil, I again assumed I should not feed for at least 2 weeks and again decided to wait 3, which was when I did my first feeding of 10-30-20.

Now all of this obviously led to a deficiency. I'm using FFOF now and don't want to assume the procedure was correct and it was just the soil and end up doing this again.
I plan on continuing to use 1 gal from seed/clone and then switch to 3 gal a week or so before flower since it appears that will make ideal size plants to do a rotation using my setup.

bigjesse1922 said:

Yeah, me too.

Here was my first attempt ever at the UB method, hope you don't mind me sharing.

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Not at all. Very cool.

psyte said:

Ben, I forgot to ask you... how often and at what concentration do you feed Jack's? I know I'll need to adjust as I go according to the plant's specific needs, I'm just curious about your general recommendation and I haven't seen that mentioned in any of your articles I've read so far. I've been feeding according to the directions at 1/4 tsp per gal every watering.

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What works for me probably won't work for you. I use so much slow release organics or encapsulated foods that I really do just tweaks here and there based on how they look. It's your call.....no two gardens are alike. 1/4 tsp. aint gonna do squat, unless supplemented by your soil mix's nutrient charge. Sum of the parts mah man....

Mel Frank is pure solid botany, just what you need. Trust me, his approach will be your shortcut to success. FWIW, he has a very comprehensive chapter on plant nutrition, deficiencies and such. Lot's of deficiency crap floating around in the internet chat rooms. Senor Mel has it down pat.

Uncle Ben said:

And no, "yellowing leaves and leaf necrosis during flowering" is NOT normal. That's just a cover up because some marijuana nerd doesn't have what it takes to retain leaves until harvest.

UB

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Well said. Peace

bigjesse1922 said:

I think You're plants are starving. I am not an expert on plant nutrition but since they are probably deficient in everything given the content of Big Bloom alone, maybe a 20-20-20 started at half or even 3/4 strength might be appropriate?

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Good point bigjes. I'll give them all a good shot of food.

I think you were right on bigjesse. I didn't have any GP nutes so I gave a mix of fish emulsion and FF Tiger Bloom a couple nights ago and she's looking better already. I should have known that myself, thanks for setting me straight.

Uncle Ben said:

Mel Frank is pure solid botany, just what you need. Trust me, his approach will be your shortcut to success. FWIW, he has a very comprehensive chapter on plant nutrition, deficiencies and such. Lot's of deficiency crap floating around in the internet chat rooms. Senor Mel has it down pat.

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I thoroughly read most of the book, especially the section on plant nutrition relating to hydro. Really learning a lot from tables 9.6 and 9.7 relating to hydroponic nutrients UB. Just a little worried I am going to burn my plants with what he is advising. 300-80-250-75-400-400 (N-P-K-MG-S-C) during veg. is quite more than I am used to running.

If I can get this down pat, I really think it would help me a lot, however. If I am weary of burning, what would you suggest?

bigjesse1922 said:

I thoroughly read most of the book, especially the section on plant nutrition relating to hydro. Really learning a lot from tables 9.6 and 9.7 relating to hydroponic nutrients UB. Just a little worried I am going to burn my plants with what he is advising. 300-80-250-75-400-400 (N-P-K-MG-S-C) during veg. is quite more than I am used to running.

If I can get this down pat, I really think it would help me a lot, however. If I am weary of burning, what would you suggest?

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There are no absolutes. I suggest what works for you is what you go with. Me, Mel, and Joe Blow can only give you a guide, a guesstimate. It's your garden, it's unique like no other. Do you think some farmer in Texas would advise another in Kansas as to how much and what NPK ratio they should use on their alfalfa hay crop?

Got it. Time for some experimentation then. The decline has slowed a bit but things are still not looking so hot. I think it's time for a more heroic dose of nutes on the next feeding cause you're right a 1/4 tsp clearly has not done much besides maybe slow it just a little.
Well wish me luck everyone. This plant is starting to smell like fruity pebbles and the thought of losing any of those delicious nugs is getting me down a bit but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Uncle Ben said:

There are no absolutes. I suggest what works for you is what you go with. Me, Mel, and Joe Blow can only give you a guide, a guesstimate. It's your garden, it's unique like no other. Do you think some farmer in Texas would advise another in Kansas as to how much and what NPK ratio they should use on their alfalfa hay crop?

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Gotcha. That's pretty much what I expected to hear. I really, again, appreciate you linking me to this information. I am really glad I started my research on this and think it's going to be worth it's weight in gold.

psyte said:

Got it. Time for some experimentation then. The decline has slowed a bit but things are still not looking so hot. I think it's time for a more heroic dose of nutes on the next feeding cause you're right a 1/4 tsp clearly has not done much besides maybe slow it just a little.
Well wish me luck everyone. This plant is starting to smell like fruity pebbles and the thought of losing any of those delicious nugs is getting me down a bit but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

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Good luck buddy. I really think you're still gonna harvest some great smoke. I have faith in you!

Well I think it may be pulling through. The leaf curling has gone away and smaller leaves at the bottom are getting back to a darker green color. Unfortunately I think I may lose a good portion of the larger fan leaves, but I think enough will hang on to see it through to harvest. It seems the ones that already reached a certain stage of yellowing must have passed the CO2 marker and the plant just gave up on them. Those continue to die while the rest seems to be either slowly recovering or at least not getting much worse. No pics yet as it looks pretty similar to before overall. Hopefully in a week or so I'll see some clear signs of recovery. If it all works out I'll post more info about what I fed.

Interestingly I have a mother plant which was a sister clone of this one we've been talking about. After taking clones a month ago, I thoroughly neglected the mother for a while and then decided to prune the shit out of it (leaves, branches, even a majority of the roots) and replant it back in a 1 gal container. Anyhow, it's been just barely staying alive with all kinds of deficiencies. Well I started this mother plant on the same nutes as the one in flower. The last time I saw it last night when foliar feeding them it was still looking pretty shitty. But when I just looked at it now I noticed every tip has new growth (something that hasn't happened in weeks) and small new dark green leaves coming out all overnight! Hopefully this is a good sign for my plant in flower. It's much bigger so it will probably take longer to recover, but I think I'm on the right path.

This plant continues to be a pain in my ass. It basically looks very similar to when this thread was started. The good thing about that is it's not getting any worse. At this point a lot of the bigger foliage is still yellow or yellowish, although many of these leaves now have dark green veins, so we'll see what happens. The smaller leaves have become much darker green and a couple are showing hints of nute burn, so I am maintaining the level of nutes now.

I've been feeding around 1.25tsp/gal Jack's 30-10-10 along with either 2tbsp/gal molasses or 5-1-1 fish emulsion at every watering (every 3-4 days). It has also received two foliar feeds with 1tbsp/gal 5-1-1 + .25tsp/gal 30-10-10. It is now getting 1.5tsp/gal Jack's 30-10-10 and will probably continue to get that until harvest unless it starts to respond differently.

Here are some pics. First shows top view of the plant. Second is side view, where you can really see how the smaller undergrowth has become a nice dark green although the bigger leaves and canopy continue to look light green and yellowish. The third pic shows the plant under the HPS with my bagseed plant. Right when I started this problem plant on nutes, I kicked up the nutes significantly on the bag seed plant as the bottom leaves were showing a hint of yellow. You can see in comparison how well this plant is doing having been fed properly since the first hint of deficiency.




And here are some pics of the mother I referred to in my last post (which is a sister clone of the problem plant in flower). Being a smaller plant in veg, this one really responded well to the increased nutes. It has been fed very similar to the plant in flower as described above.
The first pic was taken on 10/2. The second pic was taken yesterday, only 7 days later. Look at the complete change in color and all the new growth. I was going to throw this plant away but now I'm having second thoughts.




Well I got a bit long winded there so thanks to anyone who took the time to read this post. I may post results when I harvest this or if there are any major changes before then (but I don't expect there to be).

psyte said:

..... Being a smaller plant in veg, this one really responded well to the increased nutes. It has been fed very similar to the plant in flower as described above.
The first pic was taken on 10/2. The second pic was taken yesterday, only 7 days later. Look at the complete change in color and all the new growth. I was going to throw this plant away but now I'm having second thoughts.

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You didn't think I'd steer you wrong, did you (page 4 posts)? Nice recovery! However, don't over do it or you'll have another set of problems to deal with. You're really pushing them now with a lot of salts:

I've been feeding around 1.25tsp/gal Jack's 30-10-10 along with either 2tbsp/gal molasses or 5-1-1 fish emulsion at every watering (every 3-4 days). It has also received two foliar feeds with 1tbsp/gal 5-1-1 + .25tsp/gal 30-10-10. It is now getting 1.5tsp/gal Jack's 30-10-10 and will probably continue to get that until harvest unless it starts to respond differently.

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Watch for any leaf burn although with the 5-1-1 you might be OK. Also, did you use a surfactant in your spray? If not, it just rolled off the leaf surface with no real world uptake.
Good luck,
UB

bigjesse1922 said:

I think I can take this one. Here is a little bit about FF Big Bloom:

Guaranteed Analysis:
TOTAL NITROGEN (N)................ 0.01%
0.002% Ammoniacal Nitrogen
0.001% Nitrate Nitrogen
0.005% Water Soluble Nitrogen
0.002% Water Insoluble Nitrogen
AVAILABLE PHOSPHATE (P205).... 0.3%
SOLUBLE POTASH (K20)................ 0.7%

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Just a comment, that ratio suggests that FF doesn't know a damn thing about plant nutrition and like usual, is selling hype rather than truth. That formula is a quick death blow to the plant's health.

UB