13/11 vs 12/12 ??????

Dude, I know you are smarter than that. Unless your goal is saving electricity or just messing around to see what happens, there is absolutely no reason to go bat shit crazy with all kinds of ridiculous lighting schedules.

The comment about natural plant evolition was mostly referring to plant circadian rythms. Plants get "used to" a particular light pattern, and it takes time.

Here is a hint, instead of trying to figure out some magical way to increase yield.. try dialing in climate and light saturation.

BTW.. reproductive success in plants is often a measure of their ability to produce flowers and opportunity for pollination.

Indoors is "not natural" but that doesn't mean you start tweaking things that don't make a difference.

It's not rocket science folks. And no, your not smarter than research botanists.

legallyflying said:

Dude, I know you are smarter than that. Unless your goal is saving electricity or just messing around to see what happens, there is absolutely no reason to go bat shit crazy with all kinds of ridiculous lighting schedules.

The comment about natural plant evolition was mostly referring to plant circadian rythms. Plants get "used to" a particular light pattern, and it takes time.

Here is a hint, instead of trying to figure out some magical way to increase yield.. try dialing in climate and light saturation.

Click to expand...

It is a fact that with a gas light type schedule that one can reduce stretch and speed up cannabis flowering times. How both of those affect yield as compared to a 'normal' light cycle is not something I know. For those with time and space constraints, this light schedule manipulation can be a tool.

Lol. Come on. You can't be serious. Reduce stretch through minimal temp diff in the first couple weeks of flower. I have read multiple threads on Gass lamp and they all said the same thing... bullshit.

Anyways.. what you been up to? We are building another 48k watt flower room at the warehouse. Rec weed has been a boom for us. Who knows what the future holds but for right now.. MORE POWER!!!

legallyflying said:

Lol. Come on. You can't be serious. Reduce stretch through minimal temp diff in the first couple weeks of flower. I have read multiple threads on Gass lamp and they all said the same thing... bullshit.

Anyways.. what you been up to? We are building another 48k watt flower room at the warehouse. Rec weed has been a boom for us. Who knows what the future holds but for right now.. MORE POWER!!!

Click to expand...

Personally, I don't mess with my light cycles, I don't think it's really necessary. But I do know folks who do and there are those who run an 11/13 for long flowering sativas to help them finish. I've messed with 11/13 for my 100+ day sativas and I don't think it sped anything up actually.

48K expansion? Do you guys grow any longer flowering sativas?

I run 13/11 with a short 730nm pulse after lights out. This increases DLI (daily light integral) by 1/12 without increasing light intensity. It also reduces the night period the plant uses it's starch reserves by 1/12th thus increasing the rate of starch metabolism at night.. This results in a higher yield.

11/13 will decrease yield for the opposite reason. It means a decrease in DLI and an increase in night length, and thus a slower metabolism of starch at night.

churchhaze said:

I run 13/11 with a short 730nm pulse after lights out. This increases DLI (daily light integral) by 1/12 without increasing light intensity. It also reduces the night period the plant uses it's starch reserves by 1/12th thus increasing the rate of starch metabolism at night.. This results in a higher yield.

11/13 will decrease yield for the opposite reason. It means a decrease in DLI and an increase in night length, and thus a slower metabolism of starch at night.

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I do the same thing and my yields definitely increased

churchhaze said:

I run 13/11 with a short 730nm pulse after lights out. This increases DLI (daily light integral) by 1/12 without increasing light intensity. It also reduces the night period the plant uses it's starch reserves by 1/12th thus increasing the rate of starch metabolism at night.. This results in a higher yield.

11/13 will decrease yield for the opposite reason. It means a decrease in DLI and an increase in night length, and thus a slower metabolism of starch at night.

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Botany fail. Wrong wrong wrong. Cannabis metabolism of starch occurs all day and night. Here is a novel idea, actually know something before you post it.

Plant metabolism is largely based on temperature and the amount of starches present. It happens during the day and the night. The rate of metabolism is not based on the length of night.

legallyflying said:

Botany fail. Wrong wrong wrong. Cannabis metabolism of starch occurs all day and night. Here is a novel idea, actually know something before you post it.

Plant metabolism is largely based on temperature and the amount of starches present. It happens during the day and the night. The rate of metabolism is not based on the length of night.

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You're right that plants metabolize sugars (glucose/sucrose) during both the day and night, but during the day those sugars are also used to synthesize starch which is stored in chloroplasts so it can be broken down at night.


http://www.botinst.uzh.ch/research/physiology/dianasantelia/research.html




http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpls.2012.00305/full



http://www.tankonyvtar.hu/en/tartalom/tamop425/0010_1A_Book_angol_01_novenyelettan/ch03s02.html


http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/11/91/20130979


https://www.jic.ac.uk/staff/alison-smith/Control of starch_metabolism_in_leaves.html

I do see a botany fail... but it's not mine...

As you can see from all those charts and studies, the rate of starch being converted to sugars is determined by the length of the night! The shorter the night, the quicker it uses the starch reserves. It knows how long the night will be, and uses starch at a rate so that it has 0 left at sunup.

churchhaze said:

As you can see from all those charts and studies, the rate of starch being converted to sugars is determined by the length of the night! The shorter the night, the quicker it uses the starch reserves. It knows how long the night will be, and uses starch at a rate so that it has 0 left at sunup.

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Thank you for the articles, a couple were over my head but the one from frontiersin.org really described starch construction and use during the light cycle really well. So I would assume that this regulation would would be the same at the other far swing of a 6/18 cycle. So that brings us back to the original basic question, is there a limit of light and photosynthesis, that a plant can handle? I only pose this question because of this last summers indoor grow. First off I always start my lights at the flip at 11/13, I grow mainly sativa's, and they seem to jump into flower better at this lessor light. So this last summer I was having a bad heat problem so I said Fu-- it and dropped my light to 9 1/2 hrs. This got my temps to acceptable on the hi end. I started this at day 25 and went to the end. The plants were very happy and were more fragrant than they had ever been. I don't know if this was of the heat reduction or if the was the reduction of time under the 1K bulb. Maybe the plants got near their photosynthesis potential with the reduced light and there was no need for anymore???
I can tell you that the reduced light did not decrease or increase the flower time.

I don't see where the rate of starch assimilation is that much greater. In the above graphs measuring starch reserves, they are all at or very near 0 at the end of the 24 hour period.

I would hazard that increased yields seen by 13/11 is based on the fact that there is an additional hour of photosynthetic reactions from the additional hour of light, not so much based on an increase in the rate of starch reserve assimilation. My point being the rate would be somewhat negligible as the net result at the end of the night period would be zero starch reserves. Say a rate of 1.0 for 12 hours or 1.2 for 11 hours.

No?

legallyflying said:

I don't see where the rate of starch assimilation is that much greater. In the above graphs measuring starch reserves, they are all at or very near 0 at the end of the 24 hour period.

I would hazard that increased yields seen by 13/11 is based on the fact that there is an additional hour of photosynthetic reactions from the additional hour of light, not so much based on an increase in the rate of starch reserve assimilation. My point being the rate would be somewhat negligible as the net result at the end of the night period would be zero starch reserves. Say a rate of 1.0 for 12 hours or 1.2 for 11 hours.

No?

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Look at the first graph (figure A). The red curve shows a 12 hour day while the blue curve a 6 hour day. The red curve's downward slope during the night is greater than the slope of the blue curve. This is despite only accumulating a small amount of extra start during the day. (the peaks are very close). A greater slope means a greater rate of starch being converted to sugars.

The plant somehow remembers the length of previous nights and uses that information to control how fast it re-mobilizes chloroplast starch during the night. If the night goes longer than expected, the plant goes into a dormant mode where growth is stopped.

I have been using a 13 hr veg cycle with the 13th hour coming on in the middle of the dark period to prevent flowering and keep the plants shorter and bushier. They grow at a good rate and are ready to flower with less of a stretch at the start of flowering. I have also been using 11/13 and 10/14 cycles for flowering to save money it works and I have good results. Even auto flowers grown in the flowering light cycle their entire lives perform well. I have not noticed a reduction in flowering time though.

churchhaze said:

Look at the first graph (figure A). The red curve shows a 12 hour day while the blue curve a 6 hour day. The red curve's downward slope during the night is greater than the slope of the blue curve. This is despite only accumulating a small amount of extra start during the day. (the peaks are very close). A greater slope means a greater rate of starch being converted to sugars.

The plant somehow remembers the length of previous nights and uses that information to control how fast it re-mobilizes chloroplast starch during the night. If the night goes longer than expected, the plant goes into a dormant mode where growth is stopped.

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so if the last part is true, then giving the plant extended darkness right before chop "should" have no effects since the plant is dormant. or is that not true?

rkymtnman said:

so if the last part is true, then giving the plant extended darkness right before chop "should" have no effects since the plant is dormant. or is that not true?

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That's what I think. After a normal night's length of darkness, almost all the leaf starch will have been converted to sugar and burned off.

churchhaze said:

That's what I think. After a normal night's length of darkness, almost all the leaf starch will have been converted to sugar and burned off.

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it never made sense to me that 72 hrs of dark would make the plant more potent or produce more resin. i've always chopped right before lights come on.

homebrewer said:

Personally, I don't mess with my light cycles, I don't think it's really necessary. But I do know folks who do and there are those who run an 11/13 for long flowering sativas to help them finish. I've messed with 11/13 for my 100+ day sativas and I don't think it sped anything up actually.

Click to expand...

Same here

The hormonal response (degree of phytochrome production/accumulation) is either on or off for indicas or indica doms (mutts).

With PURE sativas, the flowering response is not so much triggered by a hormonal respnse as it is by chronological age as Cruz realized growing out my Dalat. Everything had finished by the time it started flowering and like I told him, once it does, it takes off like a rocket....like over night. He grew it outdoors at around the 40th latitude where the photoperiod had a profound flowering effect on his mutts.

Showing about 1/2 of one Dalat.

rkymtnman said:

it never made sense to me that 72 hrs of dark would make the plant more potent or produce more resin. i've always chopped right before lights come on.

Click to expand...

See my sig line.