Forbidden fruit breeders cut - dwc , 4x4 , jacks , kind x750

Right now I’m at 23.5 inches - but that being said the plants exploded the last two days . I honestly was guessing around 30 inches - This is measured from the bar to the top of the canopy in the middle . I’ll check it again right now actually , as I’m typing this , and even take a picture of the meter .

Now I can’t exactly hold the meter perfectly level with the canopy - and take the picture “extremely difficult “ lol

Measuring to the top of the plant I took the reading to the bar in Right at 23.5 inches and 1100 .
"extremely difficult" - yeh, PPFD changes a lot with just a small change in where the sensor is located. A change of 1" (vertically) can be 50µmol. I take multiple light readings ("samples") once the plant is > about 3 weeks. I use a grid pattern, like I've shown below. I've had a few times when the numbers don't make sense so I go back and sample the canopy again. Even though I'm trying to get the sensor in the same location, the numbers are different by maybe 50µmol because I can't get the sensor in the same location.

That leads to the conclusion that, measuring PPFD can be very precise (the meter is very accurate) but measuring PPFD itself is not more than a guide. More on that topic.

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Call it 1100 at 24". The manufacturer says that their light cannot generate that much light and the PPFD map that they display for that light fits in with the type of product that Kind designs and manufactures.

That's why I suggested that you run ClearSky and check your meter. Those readings could be because the meter is off or, as you say, something's up with your light. The fact that it's generating a lot of heat might be an indication. Have you checked the wattage that it's drawing from the wall socket? Another issue—does the info on the driver indicate that it's a 750 watt driver?
 
Question , how should I change the spectrum up , to start flowering ? I flipped last night to 12/12 . I was gonna introduce some heavy red , to promote stretching so I could do a bunch of super cropping and training as they start to flower .
I understand some of the impacts that it has but I haven't read up enough to feel comfortable saying anything other than go with the manufacturer's recommendation for that.

I honestly just wanna get this done as fast as possible - even if I don’t fill out the entire space that’s ok - I have another tent to start , and just wanna get this forbidden fruit to finish line cuz I really don’t care for the way it grows ‍♂️ looking forward to my next 3 runs of white truffle , GYAT , and apes in space …
Got it. I've no knowledge of how to manipulate the environment for a grow in progress to make it finish faster. You're in hydro and giving your plants lotsa light so, unfortunately, you're going to end up with a lengthy grow time and lotsa weed. ;-)
 
I’ve seen the par maps on the light . I’ve also read reviews on the phantom advanced quantum par meter .. I honestly have no idea if it’s accurate but what I do know is it managed to grow the fastest largest autos I’ve ever grown in my life . It outgrows my hlg , my fluence spydr 2i , the mars hydro fc8000s , and volt fl1 and its not even close , in fact the only light I’ve personally seen , grow equal or better plants is a photontek 1000W XT co2 pro . Honestly if I had the money , I’d buy the new x2 , or the photontek lights .

Either I have a factory freak light , which is absolutely possible because I did have issues with it kicking thermal protection at 100% last year / or the meter is nowhere near right - but I’ve ran an apogee right next to it and they measured the same so hard to say ..
That's good info. It's highly doubtful that two PAR meters will both be inaccurate.

If thermal protection is kicking in, I'd get that checked out pronto. Assuming that you're operating your lights in a standard operating environment, you should be able to run your lights at 100% nonstop.

What they’re claiming the light output at 24 inches , I’m seeing at 50% on both channels . Literally right at 690 !
Since you've calibrated against another PAR meter, then let's go with that.
 
Wait !! It’s umol ? Is that the difference ? Ppfd is a diff measurement correct ? Idk I’m not that advanced when it comes to my growing techniques to be honest . I base how much light to give , off of how happy the plants look - same with nutrients - light tip burn , walk a fine line - and send it ‍♂️
PAR = "photosynthetically active radiation" = the colors of light that we understand plants to use for photosynthesis
PPF= photosynthetic photon flux = how many photons a light can generate as measure right at the light surface
PPFD = photosynthetic photon flux density = how many photons are falling on a given area over a given time at a given distance
µmol = my shorthand abbreviation for micro moles per square meter per second

PPFD is how much rain is falling, µmol is how many raindrops in a square meter in a second.

It’s worked for me in the past , I’m honestly still shocked the forbidden fruit can’t handle high ppm like the last autos I ran .. even though I have these high end cuts , I’m a big fan of exotic genetics and everything I’ve ever grown from them has sucked down high EC and never so much as complained .
Is that nurient PPM or CO2PPM?

If it's nutes, that's just the way that strain functions. When a grower is going to "push" nutrients, that's a warming sign because the only advantage to adding a lot of nutrients is that the fertilizer company makes more money. Plants just fine with sufficient nutrients. Growers love to try to find the magic elixir but nutrient mixes are pretty much like the "Close door" button in an elevator.

Nutrient Sufficiency.png

Is there something in your grow environment that's been different that might have impacted the plants (besides the genetics)?

10 Parameters of Growth.png
 
Upstate New York in the winter. Snow piled high but warm inside. A friend of mine in the Army was from Watertown. Makes me cold just thinking of it.

The propane heater is a twofer—heat and CO2 but, yeh, 2k PPM is too much.




I didn't realize that it got that hot upstate. 85+CO2 is a good combo. How are you sealing the grow area?


If you can get that much CO2 in there, that's great. I'd add more photons and go easy on the time using the blue channel. Blue photons are great for "short, compact plants" and blue encourages the formation of more leaves but it has a downside, per the attached paper.

The Kind maxes out at ~950. With that level of CO2, another few hundred µmol would do well for you. I'm keen on the GlowR80's which add about 250µmol of 660nm light. I added a pair to my Growcraft flower light for my most recent grow.

I used Grok to work through some of the details of adding them to your Kind and the results are, well, about as close to optimal as you can get. I uploaded the flower spectrum and the 12" PPFD map for your light as well as the PPFD map for the GlowR80's. Grok got the PPFD wrong the first time though but the second pass looks good. The "conversation" is here.

The 57% estimate from Grok will be lower in real life because the PPFD for the R80's falls off pretty quickly but you're still going to get a good PPFD boost from just 80watts of input power for $120.

At high light levels, a pound a plant (auto or photo) is no big shakes. The trick is lotsa photons but it's got to be lotsa photons early in the lifecycle. The goal is for "canopy closure", meaning that the plant covers the entire lighted area. Blue photons will reduce plant size but encourage lotsa leaves. I've used a veg light for a few years and, yup, the plants are short and stocky at first but the flower light (now flower light + the R80's) will tend to give bigger plants.

For my next grow, I'm going to run the veg light for 4-5 weeks, instead of the normal 6-7 weeks, and then run the flower light. That might be a good recipe for you, as well. I get it about the benefits of blue light but I the Bugbee paper on what I call "the blue photon penalty" makes me want to cut back a little on the amount of blue.


Yup! Someone described autos as being like a dragster—they go really fast but one screw up and, you're done.

the good thing about hydro, to my way of thinking, is that there aren't many surprises because nothing is in the root zone unless we put it there. As long as we "measure twice, cut pour once", we should be in good shape.


"Dif" is an issue. Will your daytime temps, sans light, be lower than your night time temps when the lights are on?



Interesting idea. I sounds like a good idea but, my degree was in history, not physics. :-)

Key issue is to ensure that there's lots of consistent contact between the buckets and the coils—you can get that by forming the pex around the bucket (I had to look up pex - cross linked poly = the same stuff that's in my hips!).

What about a bucket within a bucket with the cooling water running through the outer bucket?

$100 is dirt cheap and that's for a cooler plus the tubing. That's a great price.
i did 5 years at drum, good ole water town
 
PAR = "photosynthetically active radiation" = the colors of light that we understand plants to use for photosynthesis
PPF= photosynthetic photon flux = how many photons a light can generate as measure right at the light surface
PPFD = photosynthetic photon flux density = how many photons are falling on a given area over a given time at a given distance
µmol = my shorthand abbreviation for micro moles per square meter per second

PPFD is how much rain is falling, µmol is how many raindrops in a square meter in a second.


Is that nurient PPM or CO2PPM?

If it's nutes, that's just the way that strain functions. When a grower is going to "push" nutrients, that's a warming sign because the only advantage to adding a lot of nutrients is that the fertilizer company makes more money. Plants just fine with sufficient nutrients. Growers love to try to find the magic elixir but nutrient mixes are pretty much like the "Close door" button in an elevator.

View attachment 5473087

Is there something in your grow environment that's been different that might have impacted the plants (besides the genetics)?

View attachment 5473086
That’s nutrients .
 
That’s nutrients .
Nutrients, to the plant, just aren't an issue. Growers spend a huge amount of time on it but, when all is said and done, it's all the same 18± chemicals and, as long as they're within well know ranges of concentrations and as long as they're in well known ratios, the plant has what it needs to reach its genetic potential.

I was watching a YouTube video that Bruce Bugbee and Mitch Westmoreland did in 2020, when Mitch was just starting his PhD work.


Some of that work is included in his thesis, which he published last summer (attached). In the video, he just comes out and says that, in terms of fertilizer, there's no magical elixir. Bugbee says "feed it like its tomatoes".


1752203696848.png



Insofar as PPM for a grow, I run ate 0.8 through veg, 1.2 in early veg, and max 1.8. No nutrient issues with the exception of in early flower when growth goes through the roof (I switch off the blue photons and fire up the flower light+ the R80's) and that's when, understandably, I got some Ca issues.

One of the great things about hydro is that it's hard to get a nutrient uptake issue. As long as VPD is close and wind speed is reasonable, cannabis will do fine in modest amounts of ferts.
 
Nutrients, to the plant, just aren't an issue. Growers spend a huge amount of time on it but, when all is said and done, it's all the same 18± chemicals and, as long as they're within well know ranges of concentrations and as long as they're in well known ratios, the plant has what it needs to reach its genetic potential.

I was watching a YouTube video that Bruce Bugbee and Mitch Westmoreland did in 2020, when Mitch was just starting his PhD work.


Some of that work is included in his thesis, which he published last summer (attached). In the video, he just comes out and says that, in terms of fertilizer, there's no magical elixir. Bugbee says "feed it like its tomatoes".


View attachment 5473155



Insofar as PPM for a grow, I run ate 0.8 through veg, 1.2 in early veg, and max 1.8. No nutrient issues with the exception of in early flower when growth goes through the roof (I switch off the blue photons and fire up the flower light+ the R80's) and that's when, understandably, I got some Ca issues.

One of the great things about hydro is that it's hard to get a nutrient uptake issue. As long as VPD is close and wind speed is reasonable, cannabis will do fine in modest amounts of ferts.
See these forbidden fruit , show significant tip burn at just 600 ppm . The two autos in my previous grow were started at 600 , during veg at similar size / time I was hitting the boss battle autos with 1000ppm , and I finished at 1600 and never even saw a burnt tip .

It kinda goes against the notion that autos need 50% less than a photo period .

As you said , it’s genetic dependent for sure . I’m running the same vpd , same light. The only difference here is that I’m in dwc now , vs autopots and coco /perlite .
 
See these forbidden fruit , show significant tip burn at just 600 ppm . The two autos in my previous grow were started at 600 , during veg at similar size / time I was hitting the boss battle autos with 1000ppm , and I finished at 1600 and never even saw a burnt tip .
Wow, 600's pretty low for a max value. Even I run up to 800/500.

What VPD's are you using? I run 0.8, 1.0. and 1.2-1.5 but that's in ambient CO2. Do you run lower VPD in your grows?

It kinda goes against the notion that autos need 50% less than a photo period .

As you said , it’s genetic dependent for sure . I’m running the same vpd , same light. The only difference here is that I’m in dwc now , vs autopots and coco /perlite .
I agree with you about the "It kinda goes against the notion that autos need 50% less than a photo period ." and I'll raise you to "It kinda goes against the notion that autos ≤insert characteristic du jour≥ than a photo period ."

A couple of months back, I read somewhere that(here or on another site where I'm active) that one of the snake oil vendors nute manufacturers was coming out with a line of nutrients for autoflowers but I can't find anything on it. :-(

With the exception of the photoperiod, the only difference I've found between autos and photos is that autos grow like a sumbitch so, as you pointed out previously, a serious "stepping on of the dick" can have serious consequences.
 
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