The seven biggest economic lies

PeachOibleBoiblePeach#1

Well-Known Member
No "Taxe's,,,No "Regulation's",,,are the same people that profited and passed it down to there Heir's,,,Who owned "sweatshop's",,,Employed Illegal worker's and owned slave's,,,Prevented "Women's Right's",,,,and are so "Proud to be a Christian"....I could go on and on:wall:
The economy could do better,,,at what cost? Town's polluted where 1000's die or tying up hospital's with un-issured people?,,,These people cry the same thing,,,There should be No "Minimum wage law's":eyesmoke: Really?,,,
They are master's of "Flipping there agenda",,,Please don't belive the "Hype":peace:,,,They have a lot of money and a lot too lose and for once it would be nice to beat them:mrgreen:,,,They feel it coming....They might be you,,,not me no Sir'....
 

Brick Top

New Member
Post WW2 until present. Add up the tax rates of the last 65 years and then divide by 65. That will give you the modern era historically normal tax rate.
What would make that the true "historically normal tax rate?" You have picked a period of time with the absolutely highest rates of taxation that have ever existed. That alone tells you that they are not truly representative of what you call "historically normal tax rates." You could still try to claim the "modern era" part, but again, since they were among the highest levels of taxation ever what makes them any sort of baseline?

Plus you clearly refuse to accept that this is a totally different economic world with totally different conditions and that just because the national economy chugged along and grew, in spite of insane levels of taxation, that the very same would work today.

You might as well say that all the U.S. Air Force needs today for a fighter aircraft is the F-86 Sabre because it worked in the Korean War. Doing so would make equally as much sense as your inane beliefs on taxation, both would be based in the same argument, that it worked in the past so it has to work now.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
What would make that the true "historically normal tax rate?" You have picked a period of time with the absolutely highest rates of taxation that have ever existed.
I've picked the time period when America was at it's peak economic performance. The idea that our economy would collapse if we returned to policies from when our country was at the peak of it's economic strength is pure 1% propaganda. Nothing more.

From world war 2 until the present is what is considered the "modern era". It's when we were at the peak of our success under a comparable tax system. There is nothing wrong with using that time period.

I'm not going to go back and compare tax rates to times when people paid their taxes in livestock. It's absurd to even suggest we should.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
I say screw LAFFER! I say we do away with income taxes on individuals all together. The government will just have to deal with a smaller budget.
All they will do is tax us in other ways. Laffer as I said, ,makes perfect sense because it is the same curve that can be applied to pricing anything if you ignore competition.
 

stonepwny

Member
1. Not sure, what do people do when they have even more money than before? Do they spend it or save it? Answer that question and you will know the truth. Probably a bit of both, most assuredly no one spends more when they have less, so the opposite action would be even worse, tax increases on anyone will cause less aggregate spending across the board.

2. Higher taxes WILL hurt the economy in its current condition. The reason it worked after WW2 is because the USA was the Number 1 manufacturer in the world, BY FAR!!! Our Economy was unstoppable, HUGE trade surpluses, HUGE amount of loans given to other countries who paid us back with interest. Citing the golden age of America vs the toxic age of today and thinking the same policies will work the same way is illogical.

3. Of course shrinking government causes people to lose jobs, but in the long run it's beneficial for the nation because the private market is almost exclusively more efficient.

4. The economy can be boosted without spending one more dime of the public trust. It is disingenuous to propose that the economy can ONLY be repaired by more public money going to government.

5. Combined Medicare and Medicaid spending are OVER $950 Billion PER YEAR. Total personal Tax income by the government is $1.3 Trillion, Those 2 programs use up 73% of all personal income tax levied. Leaving 350 Billion left over for everything else.

6. SS IS a Ponzi scheme, there is no account from which the System draws, there is no money, the people that work are paying for the people who are retiring. IE exactly as a Ponzi scheme works.

7. Agreed.
you can talk a socialist out of what he knows to be the 100% honest truth....smaller goverment equals better economy..and i love how people bitch that the rich get tax cuts yet when they become wealthy they jump threw all the loop holes as well...i know a day trader that lives in italy 9months out of the yr. he comes to chicago for 3 months and preeches his socialist beliefs like the ones stated above yet he comes to america to make his money...if italy is that damn good why not make your income there?? dont bring down capitalism when your riding that ship as well. your president let 500m go to waste on a solar company set up to fail..and sold weapons to the mexicans which were used to kill border patrol agents...get real people are time is short man. get ready for mass food shortage and riots. Occupy was started by the unions and the same people caused the civil unrest in egypt...new world order..have fun sucking that up. people amaze me these days..doctors, laywers, cops, factory works..all obama loving jags that cant see whats happening right infront of them
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
Ok, but the article is still stupid. The Reagan years were good. His only fault was he was insane: marijuana kills, he loves his jesus ( don't really care, but please separation of church and state ), and ET is gonna get us. But, this is proved false by looking at the oil industry. You can't get much richer than them. Most of the price of gasoline is regulations and taxes. When government restricts both taxes and regulations on the oil industry when we have a economic burden, the gasoline price goes down. But apparently it's needed because we need to help the environment and road maintenance, which around my area are horrible. Government intervention helping the people out at its finest.
2) Pretty much the same as number 1 and false for almost the same reasons. Whenever the government intervenes, bad things always happen. So called banking fees limits did nothing. All it did was give banks an excuse to increas consumer bank fees. The government can't block all loopholes. Businesses will do anything they can to keep from incurring cost themselves, and instead put it on to the consumer.
3) Who even says that's a good thing? More teachers don't make smarter kids, more firefighters don't put out more fires and more police officers don't make less crime. We'd be better off improving what we have. Just more is more and not necessarily better.
4) Yeah, look how great Obama's stimulus programs work. Just throwing money at the problem doesn't work. FDR's programs didn't work, just like Obama's didn't. Big government fails every time. Next!
5) Red herring FTW! The problems all started with the HMO act and how we currently run insurance programs.
6) This one had me in stitches with laughter. If it's not a ponzi scheme, why have they raised the age at which you can collect benefits? It's because if they didn't the whole thing would fuckin' collapse!
7) Income tax itself is wrong. The Federal Income Tax act was unconstitutional.

Nice try, but he fails.
 

Brick Top

New Member
I've picked the time period when America was at it's peak economic performance. The idea that our economy would collapse if we returned to policies from when our country was at the peak of it's economic strength is pure 1% propaganda. Nothing more.

Clearly you attribute the economic strength of that era on taxation rates being the highest rates in the history of the U.S. You must believe that because there would be no other positive or logical reason to call for such incredibly high rates of taxation unless it would bring economic prosperity now that the U.S. desperately needs it.

So, how would rolling back rates of taxation to their historically highest levels ever turn the economy around?

From world war 2 until the present is what is considered the "modern era". It's when we were at the peak of our success under a comparable tax system. There is nothing wrong with using that time period.
From WWII until the present is when we were at the peak of our success under a comparable tax system? Maybe you did not notice it but that old tax system died when Ole Ronnie became president. The great thing about that too was after the death of the old tax system far more federal tax revenues poured into the government coffers than when the historically highest tax rates were in effect.

Something you absolutely refuse to accept is that the times, the economic climate, the economic conditions, and more, were all extremely different in the era you point at and claim is proof that when taxation is at it's historic high the economy will be the strongest. Your position is untenable once the massive number of differences are factored in, which you refuse to do.

The nation for the most part thrived economically in the era you refer to and it did so for many reasons. Having the highest rate of taxation in U.S. history was not one of them. It thrived in spite of the historically high rates, not because of them. Only the clueless and those who have drunk the liberal Kool-Aid would ever believe that the economic boom years were the result of historically high rates of taxation.

I'm not going to go back and compare tax rates to times when people paid their taxes in livestock. It's absurd to even suggest we should.
But you will go back to a different era from the current one when virtually everything was so different from today that debts might as well have been paid for with livestock. That makes a whole lot of sense.

It is more than just evident that you know as little about economic success and economic growth as you do about taxation in. 1945 to 1960 are called The Affluent Society. There was good economic success and growth. 1960 to 1970 was all economic peaks and valleys but overall there was no upward trend by the end of the decade. The first half of the 60's saw a fast sharp economic gain, but from the middle of the decade to the end the economy bounced up and down with hardly any net increase. It wasn't a true economic flat-line decade, but in the end the results were virtually the same as if it had been a flat-line decade. 1970 to 1982 was only slightly better. Again there were peaks and valleys but the period of time ended very slightly higher than when it began. 1982 to 1987 saw an incredible upward economic boom that in those five years matched the upward movement of the 1945 - 1960 boom. (By chance that was when Ole' Ronnie pushed for massively lower rates of taxation, and got them. So, thanks to his lowering taxes the economy shot up as much in five years as the previous equal economic boom that took fifteen years to achieve while the historically highest rates of taxation were in effect.) 1987 to 1991 there was a dip due to the Savings & Loan disaster, and by 1991 the economy was back to where it had been when the bottom fell out due to the S&L debacle. 1991 to 1995 there were modest economic gains. 1995 to 2000 the economy grew by slightly more than half of what it grew between 1945 - 1960 and 1982 - 1987. From 2000 to 2007 the economy bounced up and down but finishing slightly higher. From 2007 until now the economy has been on a downward spiral.

So, your claimed economic boom years where taxation rates were at historic highs, economic success you clearly attribute to historically high rates of taxation, really only lasted for fifteen years, during The Affluent Society of 1945 until 1960. The next true economic boom was the Reagan boom of 1982 to 1987, after the rate of taxation had been dramatically dropped.

So your glory years were much shorter than you portray them to be and while they outlasted the Reagan boom they did not outperform the Reagan boom. A boom that occurred with dramatically lower rates of taxation.

Oh, before you respond to that with the weak worn out liberal propaganda about how Ole' Ronnie was responsible for large increases in the national debt keep two things in mind. One, Congress controls the nation's purse strings and Ole' Ronnie had a Democratically controlled Congress to work with, and it spent money like a drunken sailor on shore leave. It outspent the massive increase in collected tax revenues. Second, One of the things that killed off the economic boom of the 60's was when LBJ (for all you youngsters out there LBJ stand for President Lyndon Baines Johnson. It's not Spanish for a blowjob) found himself in a terrible money pinch thanks to his War in Vietnam and the massive spending increases from his Great Society he did two things. He raided the then existing Social Security Trust Fund and transferred the funds into the general funds, and by doing so created the problem that many presidents have faced since with Social Security sapping the nation and teetering on insolvency, and he also raised taxes, and by doing so he killed economic growth deader than disco.

There is another famous parallel to the economic death caused by LBJ raising taxes. FDR became president in 1932, during The Great Depression. By 1937 the economy was turning around, it was improving. It was no where near back to what it had been but there were more jobs and things were getting better. That was until FDR raised taxes and turned the recovery into a recession within a depression and it took the full employment caused not by FDR but by WWII instead to start to bring the nation back economically.

So, since you like historical examples so much there is one historical example of an economic boom being halted in it's tracks thanks to increasing taxation and also an example of a recovery not only stopped in it's tracks but also reversed and made worse thanks to increasing taxation during an economic recovery.

And to think you actually want taxes increased! WOW!
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Brick Top, you keep mentioning Reagan and his tax cuts as proof of some sort of economic miracle, but if that was truly the case than where was the Bush boom? I mean, Reagan lowered taxes and so did Bush - but why wasn't there a huge economic boom following the Bush tax cuts?

I'll tell you why... Remember, correlation and causation.

You assert that the Reagan tax cuts are responsible for the economic growth in the 80's, right? You've got correlation. So, let's see if we can establish causation shall we? We're going to use the Bush tax cuts as our comparison - if tax policy was the driver of the Reagan era growth than the same should be true for the Bush tax cuts and economic growth. But it wasn't right? I'm sure we can all agree that the Bush era tax cuts failed at spurring growth. Here is where you're case for causation falls apart; If your assertion was correct, there would be a boom after the Bush tax cuts.... SO we've failed to establish causation, if anything we've shown your assertion to be completely incorrect. But this post isn't complete until we can point to the real driver of the economic growth that did(in the 80's) or did not(in the 2000's) take place, is it? We must ask ourselves, what is the difference in these two cases?

Monetary policy.

In the early 80's on throughout the decade, Chairman Paul Volcker used the tools of the Federal Reserve to pull the economy out of recession (which was also created by Volcker, because it was the only reliable way to get rid of the stagflation that plagued the mid-late 70's). You see, it was the actions of the Federal Reserve that drove the growth of the 80's, and that is what was absent during the Bush era - along with the growth that would have came if your assertion was correct, which it isn't.

BTW, when we compare in economics I wouldn't go back to the early 1900's - but I wouldnt go to the 50's-60's either. Most economists use 1980-present when making comparisons because the economic conditions are fairly similar.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
That was until FDR raised taxes and turned the recovery into a recession within a depression and it took the full employment caused not by FDR but by WWII instead to start to bring the nation back economically.
Wrong again. It was MONETARY POLICY that caused the 1937 dip; The Federal reserve started raising interest rates prematurely, look it up.
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
Mame, your faith in the cult of interest rate is really working out right now. Interest rates are at an all time low. Housing is at an all time low. Yet the housing market is still in a slump. This current expansionary policy doesn't seem to have the same cause and effect either. Thats because no matter how enticing credit may be, if you can't afford it, doesn't matter. Government intervention will never work in the long run, its just an expensive band aid.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Mame, your faith in the cult of interest rate is really working out right now. Interest rates are at an all time low. Housing is at an all time low. Yet the housing market is still in a slump. This current expansionary policy doesn't seem to have the same cause and effect either. Thats because no matter how enticing credit may be, if you can't afford it, doesn't matter. Government intervention will never work in the long run, its just an expensive band aid.
What expansionary policy? You realize our government is actually CONTRACTING at the state and local level atm right?

Interest rates staying low vindicates the keynesian view on the liquidity trap and government spending within that trap; The bond vigilantes are nowhere to be found, and it will remain that way. I think your first line was sarcasm (doesn't translate well in a forum obviously) but the real joke is on you, because the keynesian hypothesis - based on IS-LM modelling - has been absolutely correct so far in respect to interest rates on government bonds. What was the opposing viewpoint based off of? The confidence fairy? I believe that fairy died for good when Austerity was once again proven to be contractionary.
 

WillyBagseed

Active Member
*Blatantly ripped off post. Too lazy to put this in my own words but it is the truth.

The truth about Reaganomics:

Ronald Reagan and the Democrats in Congress had an implicit deal: taxes would be cut and spending would increase. This meant that the economic boom in the 80s was built on debt. The debt to GDP ratio went from 30% when Reagan took office to just under 60% when he left. Given that the GDP grew during that time, this is a doubling of debt. That is a stimulus package that puts Obama’s 2009 effort to shame. If you double your debt it’s not hard to have an economic boom — but it was built on a house of cards. Moreover, oil prices decreased dramatically during this time frame, meaning that the government stimulus of the economy was augmented by declining oil prices.

Simply: the supposed prosperity of the 80s was an illusion. It was the functional equivalent of any one of us taking out credit and living very well for awhile. It feels good while it lasts, but when it ends you’re left with debt. It was unnecessary too — falling oil prices would have stimulated the economy naturally. Moreover, this is the time frame when the US went from having a current account surplus (being a net investor in the world, with trade in balance) to a current account deficit (mostly a trade deficit). We shifted from producing as much as we consumed to consuming more than we produce — with credit coming mostly from overseas. This was the start of the great crisis we’re now enduring.

Yet Reagan doesn’t deserve all the blame. The Congressional Democrats and Republicans found this path easy in the short term. Just as Reagan didn’t veto spending (indeed, his administration famously said budget deficits don’t matter — something Dick Cheney would repeat in 2005), both parties of Congress found the ‘cut taxes, increase spending’ formula politically convenient. This was a bi-partisan effort.

Still, the fact is that Reaganomics was a myth. Government grew massively, debt grew, and so did spending.
All the 80s proved was that if you increase debt you can stimulate the economy. We knew that already.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Most economists use 1980-present when making comparisons because the economic conditions are fairly similar.
The only caveat being that the tools used to measure those conditions have been totally jacked. Using the official numbers a comparison is impossible going back as far as 1980, to be honest the only real comparison can only go back a decade. The CPI alone has had its computational formula changed 28 times since Reagan was in office.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
The only caveat being that the tools used to measure those conditions have been totally jacked. Using the official numbers a comparison is impossible going back as far as 1980, to be honest the only real comparison can only go back a decade. The CPI alone has had its computational formula changed 28 times since Reagan was in office.
That's true in some cases I guess, but you can still compare things in GDP and per capita - like revenues as a percentage of GDP, deficits as a percentage of GDP, etc
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
So, how would rolling back rates of taxation to their historically highest levels ever turn the economy around
We could use that money to pay for infrastructure programs which provide both economic stimulus and improve the long term economic efficiency of the country.

Also if would make it more profitable for a business owner to reinvest in his business than just harvest cash out of it.

From WWII until the present is when we were at the peak of our success under a comparable tax system? Maybe you did not notice it but that old tax system died when Ole Ronnie became president.
Have you noticed the crippling debt we've had since Reagan stopped making wealthy folks pay their taxes? How about the reduction in socioeconomic mobility? The transfer of wealth from the disappearing middle class to the top 1%?

The great thing about that too was after the death of the old tax system far more federal tax revenues poured into the government coffers than when the historically highest tax rates were in effect.
That's the effect of creating money out of thin air and giving it to people. The increases in revenue did NOT exceed the amounts of money being created and given out. The debt created at the time proves that. It was a big scam.

Something you absolutely refuse to accept is that the times, the economic climate, the economic conditions, and more, were all extremely different in the era you point at and claim is proof that when taxation is at it's historic high the economy will be the strongest. Your position is untenable once the massive number of differences are factored in, which you refuse to do.
Taxes on the wealthy are at an all time low. So we should have tons of jobs right? I guess the economy is fine.

Oh wait...

Despite your huge walls of text filled with elites propaganda, you still can't refute the fact that the economy does not collapse when you start taxing the wealthy because our history proves that is a fact. You also can't refute that cutting taxes on the wealthy isn't creating jobs now, because unemployment is a fact.

I don't care how big your walls of text are, you can not dispute the reality of our history with your half truths.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
Wrong again. It was MONETARY POLICY that caused the 1937 dip; The Federal reserve started raising interest rates prematurely, look it up.
Also in 1937 we had massive spending cuts. A big no-no during an economic recovery. It hasn't been tried since until now that idiots who disregard history are making the laws.
 
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