I Hope Obama Doesn't Cave On Taxes.

tet1953

Well-Known Member
Absurd to think we can fix either the debt or deficit problems without both massive spending cuts and additional revenue. Expiration of the Bush cuts at a minimum.
I think Boehner blinked first. Faced with the inevitibility that proportional tax increases have to be part of any package, he now wants a smaller package. Which, of course, doesn't solve the problem(s).
They are meeting at the WH as I type this. Dems have to dig in on the tax thing. But they also have to understand that entitlements are not sacred either.
 

Luger187

Well-Known Member
yup. i think its crazy that they still seem legitimate to some people when they say we cannot have ANY tax increases. if they are worried about small business being overtaxed, why cant we increase taxes for over a million dollars income, and then decrease them for companies under that?

i think it would be a crazy situation if the republicans held their ground and we didnt increase the ceiling. i think that would be bad PR for them lol. im sure obama would cave before that happens though
 
Yea the trickle down philosophy is garbage DROP the tax cuts for millionaires there still gonna buy stupid shit like ridiculous yachts etc. even without tax breaks.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
Absurd to think we can fix either the debt or deficit problems without both massive spending cuts and additional revenue. Expiration of the Bush cuts at a minimum.
The truth is that it's absurd to think we can fix the debt or deficit with both massive spending cuts and raising taxes. Even if we literally disbanded our military tomorrow, we'd still have a deficit.

It's a recession. During a recession we run deficits. That's just the way it is and the way it's always been. There are no exceptions to that in modern history. A balanced budget is not a reasonable nor rational expectation right now. It's simply not possible.

No president has been asked to cut spending during a recession since FDR in 1937 and it was a fucking disaster. If we have massive spending cuts, it will lead to a bigger recession, and the result will be bigger deficits. The only reason the republicans are making a huge issue out of deficits is because they want the economy to fail so they can retake the whitehouse. This is the same congress who didn't give a shit about deficits until Obama got elected.

The republicans are trying to destroy the economy and if Obama lets them then he's too weak to be president.
 

jeff f

New Member
Absurd to think we can fix either the debt or deficit problems without both massive spending cuts and additional revenue. Expiration of the Bush cuts at a minimum.
I think Boehner blinked first. Faced with the inevitibility that proportional tax increases have to be part of any package, he now wants a smaller package. Which, of course, doesn't solve the problem(s).
They are meeting at the WH as I type this. Dems have to dig in on the tax thing. But they also have to understand that entitlements are not sacred either.
yes, economists everywhere are screaming to raise taxes to get us out of this mess.....tax ourselves right into prosperity.
 

tet1953

Well-Known Member
Yeah, yeah. And the wealthy put all those tax cuts into job creation for the last 10 years.

I am not saying we can tax our way into prosperity. We do need to stop spending so much. Entitlements, sure..but also stop nation building and policing the world. We are not the savior of everyone. But trickle down is and has been proven to be total BS. Oh, sure, the wealthy do create lots of jobs. In India.

Conservatives will cry that high taxes are a redistribution of wealth. The truth is there has been a redistribution of wealth occurring for the past 30 years (at least) and it has been upward not lateral.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
yes, economists everywhere are screaming to raise taxes to get us out of this mess.....tax ourselves right into prosperity.
How many economists think it's a good idea to implement massive cut spending during a recession? Zero
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
yes, economists everywhere are screaming to raise taxes to get us out of this mess.....tax ourselves right into prosperity.
because the tax cuts of the last 30 years have done such a good job of getting us into prosperity, right?

taxes have gone down, productivity has gone up, yet wages remain stagnant. problem?
 

txpete77

Well-Known Member
What the Democrats are doing (and have been doing for years) is playing a slight-of-hand trick, so to speak. Democrats are of the mind that tax increases are theonly way to raise revenue. While at first glance most would think that this is the easiest way to raise revenue, and the reality is that it is actually the easiest way to decrease the revenues. Maryland and New York are good examples of this; both states have raised taxes on the wealthiest of their citizens. Did they experience the increase in revenue the politicians promised? No, in fact they experienced the opposite effect - they lost revenue. What happened is that those states that engaged in punishing the wealthiest found that many of those individuals (if they had the ability) moved to more tax friendly, large economy states (Florida, Texas, etc.) Money, like electricity, water, and countless other things will try to find the path of least resistance.

I called it a trick, because all one has to do is look at history to see that this course of action does not in-fact raise more revenue. This is all about 'spreading the wealth'... Republicans are not innocent in this as well - they do the same thing, but the recipients are usually certain corporate interests instead of the 'common man'. Remember how Bush 43 had to 'abandon free-market economics in order to save the free-market'?
 

sync0s

Well-Known Member
How many economists think it's a good idea to implement massive cut spending during a recession? Zero
Wrong.

Milton Friedman said:
ROBINSON: Now…[here’s another] option for handling the surplus: tax cuts. You favor that above all? FRIEDMAN: I favor it on economic grounds because it enables the ultimate consumer—the ultimate individual, you and me—to decide how the money should be used. You know, it makes no sense for me to send my money to Washington to have somebody in Washington decide how to use it. I’d rather decide how to use it myself—whether for charity or for welfare or for other purposes. So that’s the first and most important argument. But the political argument for it is that it’s the only way to keep Congress from spending it.
ROBINSON: Only if Congress doesn’t have the money can it be prevented from spending it?
FRIEDMAN: Right. That’s why for a long time now I have been in favor of any tax cut, under any circumstances, in any way, in any form whatsoever.
ROBINSON: On any pretext.
FRIEDMAN: On any pretext because that’s the only way to keep down government spending.
ROBINSON: Here’s the argument some economists make against a tax cut. Again, quoting Robert Solow: “Tax reduction, especially income tax reduction, fattens the disposable income of households. Most of it flows into consumption; only a small fraction is saved. The choice between debt reduction and tax reduction as ways of disposing of a budget surplus is mainly a choice between adding to investment and adding to consumption, between provision for the future and enjoyment today.” So, according to this argument, you cut taxes and all you’re going to do is enable the American people to go on a brief, giddy spree.
FRIEDMAN: It will enable the American people to do what the American people want to do, not what Bob Solow thinks they ought to do.
ROBINSON: But you’re making a moral argument, not an economic argument.
FRIEDMAN: Yes, that’s a moral argument, absolutely. Are there any other arguments? Fundamentally doesn’t it all come down to moral arguments? What’s an amoral argument?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason you don't support cutting government spending is because it lowers our national GDP and thus our economy ends up losing money, thus making the economy worse, less jobs, failing infrastructure, etc. Right? We have our options to increase the other areas of our GDP beyond the amount that we would cut from our governments spending. We need to use these options, and our GDP can still have the potential to rise. A raising GDP means better economic performance which means jobs, businesses, etc.
 

tet1953

Well-Known Member
What happened is that those states that engaged in punishing the wealthiest found that many of those individuals (if they had the ability) moved to more tax friendly, large economy states (Florida, Texas, etc.) Money, like electricity, water, and countless other things will try to find the path of least resistance.
So...if national taxes are higher for wealthy individuals, what are they gonna do, move to another country? Better to oversee their investments, I suppose.
 

newatit2010

Well-Known Member
Well Texas lowered taxes and has created half the jobs in the US. New York raised taxes and the rich move to Flordia.

Now tax them rich out of your state or country. Is it that hard to see this.


And its a good thing that at the end of the year the taxes on the regular people will be 2% more so we can save the country.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Of course Obama will cave on taxes, he isn't caving anyway, its what he wants. You see, Obama is really a Republican.
 

tet1953

Well-Known Member
Know what's really scary to me? The larger package, the one they'll never agree on, won't even solve the problems. They can't agree on a huge package -- 4 trillion over 10 or 12 years -- averages out to about 400 billion a year. Our deficit this year is close to 1.5 trillion. Granted, deficits are estimated to be half of that in about 5 years, I guess due to cyclical changes and recovery from the recession.
I also realize that having deficits and debt is not, in and of itself, a terrible thing. As time goes on though, interest on the debt becomes a larger and larger share of the available pie, which will limit what government can do in the future. I know that is what a lot of people want, smaller government. But there are a lot of things government does that the private sector will never pick up because it is not immediately profitable (R&D, etc).
Beyond the politics of the current arguments there are fundamental ideaological differences at play and I really don't know who is going to blink first. Probably Obama. But I think it is more likely that no one does, and things are going to get really really ugly.
 

jeff f

New Member
Know what's really scary to me? The larger package, the one they'll never agree on, won't even solve the problems. They can't agree on a huge package -- 4 trillion over 10 or 12 years -- averages out to about 400 billion a year. Our deficit this year is close to 1.5 trillion. Granted, deficits are estimated d to be half of that in about 5 years, I guess due to cyclical changes and recovery from the recession.
I also realize that having deficits and debt is not, in and of itself, a terrible thing. As time goes on though, interest on the debt becomes a larger and larger share of the available pie, which will limit what government can do in the future. I know that is what a lot of people want, smaller government. But there are a lot of things government does that the private sector will never pick up because it is not immediately profitable (R&D, etc).
Beyond the politics of the current arguments there are fundamental ideaological differences at play and I really don't know who is going to blink first. Probably Obama. But I think it is more likely that no one does, and things are going to get really really ugly.
So businesses don't invest in R &D? now that's funny. How do you think businesses become profitable businesses?

Ever heard of ibm, apple, GE, intel, pfizer, insert any profitable business here...

US Education sucks.
 

tet1953

Well-Known Member
I did not say that.

I said that there are things, such as R&D (note I did not say all R&D) that are not immediately profitable to the private sector. Energy alternatives, for example. Big oil does token research but not enough. There are a myriad of such examples.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Energy alternatives really have the biggest potential and seem like one of the safer investments IMO. If I had to choose between green energy funding or High speed rail the green energy investment just seems like a much better choice... And as Tet pointed out the government should be involved in things the private sector doesn't want to do - green energy falls into that catagory, doesn't it?
 

ink the world

Well-Known Member
yes, economists everywhere are screaming to raise taxes to get us out of this mess.....tax ourselves right into prosperity.
Ourselves Jeff? really?
Are you a fucking multi billion dollar corporation?
Do you earn over $1,000,000 a year?
Do you have a corporate jet?


Clown
 

ink the world

Well-Known Member
Well Texas lowered taxes and has created half the jobs in the US. New York raised taxes and the rich move to Flordia.

Now tax them rich out of your state or country. Is it that hard to see this.


And its a good thing that at the end of the year the taxes on the regular people will be 2% more so we can save the country.
Maybe you should do some research before you post, as your own post dis-proves itself.

Yes Texas has lower unemployment than the national average. BUT, is also has the highest percentage of MINIMUM WAGE employees in the country and one of the lowest minimum wages in the states. . Yay, shit jobs that dont pay the bills for all!!!


Yes the answer is $7.25 an hour jobs, thats real fucking progress.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Maybe you should do some research before you post, as your own post dis-proves itself.

Yes Texas has lower unemployment than the national average. BUT, is also has the highest percentage of MINIMUM WAGE employees in the country and one of the lowest minimum wages in the states. . Yay, shit jobs that dont pay the bills for all!!!


Yes the answer is $7.25 an hour jobs, thats real fucking progress.
plus, those shitty jobs are in TEXAS.

some of the texans around here speak of $500 ounces. it must suck to live in texas.
 
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