Why Is It...

[mindphuk]

Why is it frustrating? I am that person, can you explain the start of life itself, nobody has, it would be great if you could. Evolution is a known fact. They may call it a theroy, but how can you call it a theroy when all around us evolution is happening everyday. As for myself, I also believe in Creation, untill somebody comes along and proves me wrong. I am well versed in science, so I would love to discuss this further.

Most religion nowdays sadly has nothing to do with spiritual growth.

You are not that person if you accept the fact of evolution. As karri0n pointed out, I had a stoner moment when I was editing my post. I didn't say what I meant. There are some creationists that deny the reality of evolution because of the very fact that we don't know about life's origin. Our lack of knowledge about the absolute origins in no way affects the extremely strong evidence we have for continuous evolution from single celled organisms to us.

The only theoretical parts have to do with how things evolve, which is where natural selection is named as the powerful mechanism. This was the incredible intuitive leap that Darwin made. This is one of those things that seem so obvious in hindsight, when we look at the state of knowledge about the natural world we had during his time, we can see how amazing his insight was.

Unfortunately, some of the religious scientists that I know are using this gap in knowledge to place their god. This will get harder and harder to do as we learn more about abiogenesis.

 

[researchkitty]

Creation and I have a big problem. There's zero fact or evidence whatsoever that this magical "creator" exists. All you have is a book from when people were learning how to write thousands of years ago. That's wonderful, my grandfather told bedtime stories too, I just didnt publish them as the "Bible".

Show me one single shred of evidence that a mysterious being created the Universe and man. Zero..... Just what "other people" "said they saw".

 

[ChubbySoap]

i always assumed cells developed before replicating molecules....i know, batty huh?

i only say that cause of all the iron sulphide rocks near hot, hydrothermal vents on the sea floors...they are everywhere...and even have tons of microscopic spheres and capsule types of forms littering the sea floors...rocks are really porous.
they always looked like keen incubators to me...seriously
...first cells where non-living, then hydrothermal fluids with different densities wash over these tiny metallic spheres with a hole running through them, surface tension of these differing liquid mixes forms a skin across these micropored rocks, instantly providing the right micro-environment for chemical reactions to take place...

simple...laughable...omg
...that means this shit can easily happen on most primitives bodies, comets, and even possibly ordinary mountain sized randomly flying rocks.

 

[karri0n]

Creation and I have a big problem. There's zero fact or evidence whatsoever that this magical "creator" exists. All you have is a book from when people were learning how to write thousands of years ago. That's wonderful, my grandfather told bedtime stories too, I just didnt publish them as the "Bible".

Show me one single shred of evidence that a mysterious being created the Universe and man. Zero..... Just what "other people" "said they saw".

There IS a creator - the error lies in the way you're trying to understand it. It's not a literal, white robed, bearded wizard in the sky. It's the fundamental energy upon which all of reality sits. It has been described as a "zero point field", "quantum sea", "the force", "prana", "chi", and countless other terms

 

[researchkitty]

There IS a creator - the error lies in the way you're trying to understand it. It's not a literal, white robed, bearded wizard in the sky. It's the fundamental energy upon which all of reality sits. It has been described as a "zero point field", "quantum sea", "the force", "prana", "chi", and countless other terms

I disagree, but scientifically. Out of nothing there *HAS* to be something. Nothing creates something. The arguments come from this 65 minute lecture that is incredibly easy to understand on any level.

[youtube]7ImvlS8PLIo[/youtube]

....and finally for the people who dont want to spend 65 minutes on a video (*which is strongly recommended)

[youtube]sFRKPlZMavE[/youtube]

...this is a 3 minute quick summary, cliffnotes style.



Therefore, unless you believe (believe being the key word) that the "creator" is some form of raw energy, there's nothing to create and nothing to create from. If you believe its just "raw energy" then that's good and dandy, but if you do, then you collapse every religion across the entire known habitable Universes beliefs. What exactly is this place called hell and this heaven place that people think they go to? Believing that "something" created us is scientifically an unanswerable question, which is why threads like this exist of course.

But if this energy creator existed, how many of our morals and existance was planned and all of these rules to live by? OH RIGHT -- That was man, not a "god". Religion is what I have a problem with, I dont have a problem with a creator (or any opinion or care, just like to review evidence both ways).

 

[karri0n]

. If you believe its just "raw energy" then that's good and dandy, but if you do, then you collapse every religion across the entire known habitable Universes beliefs.

A pretty bold(or ignorant?) statement. Where did you get your degree in world religion? Protip: I'm religious, and I indeed belive this.

There are many religious people that hold this as a fairly basic tenet. Have you ever heard the saying "all gods are one god"? This is derived from the basic tenet that all gods that are worshipped come from the same raw energy(or some prefer divine energy) source that makes up everything in existence. It's not something the human mind can truly understand, so people come up with personifications that can be assigned qualities that can be understood and drawn upon. This isn't ssomething just made up - even Carl Jung has shown that these archetypes are something heavily ingrained into our subconscious.

 

[researchkitty]

A pretty bold(or ignorant?) statement. Where did you get your degree in world religion? Protip: I'm religious, and I indeed belive this.

There are many religious people that hold this as a fairly basic tenet. Have you ever heard the saying "all gods are one god"? This is derived from the basic tenet that all gods that are worshipped come from the same raw energy(or some prefer divine energy) source that makes up everything in existence. It's not something the human mind can truly understand, so people come up with personifications that can be assigned qualities that can be understood and drawn upon. This isn't ssomething just made up - even Carl Jung has shown that these archetypes are something heavily ingrained into our subconscious.

I'd say uninformed would be better than ignorant to classify it. I'm not trying to start a ruckus, just express my point of view...... That's all I got, as nobody knows the real answers and probably wont within our lifetime..... But what you write is basically my argument against religion, in that they all pretend to believe in one thing and then each have their own views to support their own desires for life whether it be religion for polygamy, scientology, catholicism, any of it. They all have such drastic views, and they tell me if I dont follow their ways, I'm doomed to hell.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. No thanks! I believe in science because there's proof...... that's all I got.

 

[plantvision]

I'd say uninformed would be better than ignorant to classify it. I'm not trying to start a ruckus, just express my point of view...... That's all I got, as nobody knows the real answers and probably wont within our lifetime..... But what you write is basically my argument against religion, in that they all pretend to believe in one thing and then each have their own views to support their own desires for life whether it be religion for polygamy, scientology, catholicism, any of it. They all have such drastic views, and they tell me if I dont follow their ways, I'm doomed to hell.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. No thanks! I believe in science because there's proof...... that's all I got.

This is the downfall of man, taking something and trying to impress upon other people what they believe. I believe, strong emphasis on "I", that my faith is my faith, if it is good then I am to be an example of it. By no means am I to start a crusade. If it is good then people will see and will wonder what it is I have. I do not believe in organized religion as it has come to be known now. I was a member of a beautiful church, 20 members, we believed in all aspects of the gifts of God. Nobody was better than anybody else, the pastor was even with the congergation. Then came people with ideas of how it was supposed to be. The church failed. Organized religion is not how God wanted it. I cannot decide another persons destiny. I at times wonder if I will see heaven, for I am as sinful as the person besides me. This is the fruit of organized religion, people angred by other peoples ideas of them.

I also believe in science, you can have them both. Creation and evolution, science and religion.

May all you find peace.

God created all things good, including the drugs that we use, be at peace with it all, but do not over indulge.

 

[researchkitty]

This is the downfall of man, taking something and trying to impress upon other people what they believe. I believe, strong emphasis on "I", that my faith is my faith, if it is good then I am to be an example of it. By no means am I to start a crusade. If it is good then people will see and will wonder what it is I have. I do not believe in organized religion as it has come to be known now. I was a member of a beautiful church, 20 members, we believed in all aspects of the gifts of God. Nobody was better than anybody else, the pastor was even with the congergation. Then came people with ideas of how it was supposed to be. The church failed. Organized religion is not how God wanted it. I cannot decide another persons destiny. I at times wonder if I will see heaven, for I am as sinful as the person besides me. This is the fruit of organized religion, people angred by other peoples ideas of them.

I also believe in science, you can have them both. Creation and evolution, science and religion.

May all you find peace.

God created all things good, including the drugs that we use, be at peace with it all, but do not over indulge.

It might be the downfall of women, sure. =P Anyhow, you cant expect threads in the SPIRITUALITY section to not discuss one side or the other. If you ONLY want to hear YOUR point of view, hit alt+f4 and then go watch a bible dvd or something. =) I respect your opinions, you, your faith, everything, but come on, dont come in here telling us that we're bad for discussing things in the discussion forums.

 

[noxiously]

I wish I had more info on what I'm about to say, but I'll research more on it later lol. I was watching this program a few months ago and they were talking about how these scientists found a meteorite and when they put some fragments from the center of the meteor under a microscope they discovered tons of amino acids. This certain type of amino acids are actually the building blocks of life. I guess these types of amino acids, if given the right conditions could form into simple bacteria. If these bacteria were given the right conditions, over millions of years could evolve into a higher form. Who knows, maybe we came from outer space. One could look at it like this: Say we are like plants. Lets say that our "Home planet" was dying off millions/billions of years ago. Lets say, somehow, it fragmented when this earth like planet came to an end, resulting in "Pollen" (amino acids) being released into the cosmic air, on these meteors like the pollen of a weed plant, or like the seeds floating in the air from dandelions, in search of a fertile planet to impregnate/pollenate. So one day, one of those fragments that was carrying these amino acids/pollen collided with earth and voila, the beginnings of evolution. Our universe is too big to describe. We have trillions of planets, trillions of stars, who says that there isn't another planet out there, maybe millions of planets out there with humans living on them.

Lol, now here I go, maybe I should just go to bed. I was wondering about this the other day when I was driving home from work. What if there is another planet out there that is exactly like earth. And lets say that planet had evolution going on as well. Now, before mammals, there were dinosaurs right? They say the dinosaurs became extinct because of an asteroid hit earth (maybe the one that carried the right amino acids). O.k., so the dinosaurs on our earth became extinct because the sun got blocked out, and blah blah blah you know the story. But what if on that other earth like planet no asteroid hit, nothing major happened to make the dinosaurs become extinct. Would humans and other mammals be on that planet? Would they be behind on the evolutionary chain? Or would humans have came about and living side by side with dinosaurs.

Wow, I'm rambling, I'm going to bed now. lol But does anyone get what I'm saying?

 

[MomaPug]

If the theory of evolution doesn't require faith or belief, then the backbone of the whole thing must be laced with pseudo-facts. That is the only logical determination I can come to when people believe in a damn theory that HAS NOT been proven.

It's a very personal choice, but the same argument can be had for Creationism. "the whole thing must be laced with pseudo-facts. That is the only logical determination I can come to when people believe in a damn theory that HAS NOT been proven." Compounding that is the fact that there is no scientific proof backing it.

Religion has been handed down for eons by people. Ever play the game "Telephone"? Start a story and pass it around, by the 4th or 5th person you have a different story...imagine passing a story down for centuries?

Evolution makes sense to me, and there are scientific facts that back it.

Humans have the ability to reason. If I had never heard of either religion or evolution and was introduced to both, I must say evolution sounds a lot more plausible to me...I tend to weigh facts, not stories.

 

[sir rance alot]

It doesnt matter if you believe in string theory, or membrane theory, or even the big bang or creationism. It had to have a beginning.

You only have to ask YOURSELF... Was the beginning created by a GOD? or was the beginning the birth of GOD?

Now something had to create the beginning... it doesnt matter if it was started by a chemical reaction or an electrical charge. Something created it. Whatever it was that created it in my opinion qualifies as GOD.

My personal belief is that something as powerful as a GOD that can create the energy to form the universe would not have such a petty trivial emotion as jealousy. Or have the need for a lower life form than himself pray to him, worship him etc. That is the equivilent of a human wanting all the ants on the planet to worship him. But I do believe that if a being had the power to create the universe on purpose, he would also have a way to pick better disciples to spread His word.

Just the fact that we are expected to believe in a book that was written by people who didnt know what a germ was, didnt know where the sun went at night, didnt know what the sun even was, and thought volcanoes were angry demons.. Just the fact that we are expected to believe these peoples books (bible) even after the extremely broken translations. The translations of the translations all the while getting the translators own thoughts of what the original author (meant to say).. Because I am expected to believe that nonsense is why I never will..

This may mean I am destined to burn in hell....but if GOD wants me to put Him above all others, then I need a little more than a book written by slingblade...umm hmm

 

[researchkitty]

Now something had to create the beginning... it doesnt matter if it was started by a chemical reaction or an electrical charge. Something created it. Whatever it was that created it in my opinion qualifies as GOD.

Quantum fluctuations that start as nothing from nothing is what created exacly enough energy to create our Universe. Since out of nothing, we have something, and without the nothing we'd have to have something, then god is nothing and nothing is god. What happened before the big bang happened before time existed, so what happened before it doesnt actually make sense as an actual question. Our Universe *is* here because of nothing, and from nothing.

 

[karri0n]

Quantum fluctuations that start as nothing from nothing is what created exacly enough energy to create our Universe. Since out of nothing, we have something, and without the nothing we'd have to have something, then god is nothing and nothing is god. What happened before the big bang happened before time existed, so what happened before it doesnt actually make sense as an actual question. Our Universe *is* here because of nothing, and from nothing.

The concept in that video you posted has about as much evidence as creationism has backing it up, and it seems like you have about as much understanding of the point they are making as the average creationist has of evolution. The idea that quantum fluctuation caused the net energy of everything(or nothing) in existence to move from zero to something more than zero is a novel idea, but where is the evidence? Along that same token, the nature of energy and particles on a quantum scale dictates that there could NEVER be a net energy of completely zero, meaning minute fluctuations over or under what it was at the time would not have this effect of "suddenly there is energy and boom goes the big bang"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

 

[Padawanbater2]

Karri0n, are you taking the position that the universe was created by some kind of creator, i.e. God?

 

[karri0n]

Karri0n, are you taking the position that the universe was created by some kind of creator, i.e. God?

Probably not in the sense that you are picturing - My position is that there's a basic, fundamental energy that all of existence consists of and rests on top of. It's from this energy, which we(and especially primitive peoples) can't truly fathom and understand, that people form personifications(deities, gods) in order to be able to understand and work with it.

 

[Padawanbater2]

Probably not in the sense that you are picturing - My position is that there's a basic, fundamental energy that all of existence consists of and rests on top of. It's from this energy, which we(and especially primitive peoples) can't truly fathom and understand, that people form personifications(deities, gods) in order to be able to understand and work with it.

All things that exist have energy, OK I agree with that.

Then the next sentence you say we can't understand this energy, which I don't agree with.

Why can't we understand it? Why do you call this energy "god"?

 

[sir rance alot]

Quantum fluctuations that start as nothing from nothing is what created exacly enough energy to create our Universe. Since out of nothing, we have something, and without the nothing we'd have to have something, then god is nothing and nothing is god. What happened before the big bang happened before time existed, so what happened before it doesnt actually make sense as an actual question. Our Universe *is* here because of nothing, and from nothing.

You cant have any fluctuation of something that doesnt exist yet. You also MUST have something for a fluctuation to occur in! So the point is: what created the actual space possible for a fluctuation to occur, be it quantum or any other.

I propose to you that what ever you think of as the smallest, the largest, or the earliest event to take place that sparked the beginning of everything, still had to happen in a physical space. There is no debate about that unless you are ignorant to facts. The question still remains.....Who or what created that space for it to happen?

 

[sir rance alot]

I will give you a clue..... Math wont help you to answer it..

 

[karri0n]

All things that exist have energy, OK I agree with that.

Then the next sentence you say we can't understand this energy, which I don't agree with.

Why can't we understand it? Why do you call this energy "god"?

We can't understand it because it's too big to quantify, and too basic a construct of reality to really observe. Only in recent years are we developing technologies to even know definitively of its existence. As of now we don't know the full nature of it - which by definition means we don't understand it.

I don't think I called it "god", but it is the creator of the universe in that all of existence(creation) is based on and comes from it.