Custom DIY LED panel help

dragger

Member
in order to sink the heat away from the LED you will need to have something that will aid in cooling... The cookie sheet will only sink a minimal amount of heat as there are no fins look at a computer CPU there is a finned heatsink on it with a fan you can get by with the fins mounted on the otherside of the cookie sheet from the LED's... your headed in the right direction with your idea...

Dragger...
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Ohm's Law tells us this. Watts = Current x Resistance. 5w LED with a forward voltage of 3.6v and draw of 1A is only using 3.6w NOT 5w. You should know this :wink:

I do know ohms law, I taught electronics for 4 years (vocational high school) What you are missing is that the led is already rated in watts (which is a measurement of heat actually) the 1 amp spec is the most it can handle before failure Plus this is a failed equation as there is no resistance in a diode,,ie; if you do the math to find resistance you would see that at 3.6 volts and 1 amp the resistance would/should be 3.6 ohms totally not true with an led or any diode for that matter. To point out further what I am saying you said you were going to use a DC to DC convertor that limits them to 700 milliamps = .7 amps

Since you can not actually calculate this using ohms law because you are dealing with a diode which is a current activated device, that actually drops voltage across it, you would however use ohms law to calculate the value of the resister to use to bias the led on.

Here is ditty from a webpage that explains what I am saying (you may have already seen it in your research)

LED ratings are specified by current, not voltage. For longest life, we recommend you run them at 20-25 milliamps (ma). HOWEVER, in our LED flashlight conversions (and many commercial LED flashlights), the LEDs are run at 50-60ma, twice the rated current. One of our test LEDs ran at 98ma for over 200 hours without damage or appreciable light loss. So go ahead and experiment with running them at over rated current if you are willing to take the risk of a shorter life. In my opinion, a flashlight bulb that lasts 100 hours is a huge improvement and cost saver over the incandescent alternative which gives only 15-20 hours before it dies.
You must use some method of limiting current to your strings of LEDs. The easiest is simply using the right number of LEDs for your supply voltage. Each white LED gives a voltage drop of 3.6 volts. So, for a 115 volt DC light, you could use 32 white LEDs in series (115 / 3.6 = 32 +/-) with NO current limiting (they will limit themselves by their inherent voltage drop). In reality, though, there are many other circuit design issues you need to look at to build a reliable 115VAC home LED lighting fixture! We link to a few resources farther down on this page, and you can always Google up 'LED lighting circuits' for more information. Reverse polarity will not damage an LED unless the voltage is very high--it simply will not work, and will not pass current through. However, be sure to check the manufacturer's rating for the specific LEDs you are using--there are some out there, particularly the latest models, that can be damaged by relatively low reverse voltages. The diagram below shows how the LED package is marked for polarity.
The next easiest is a simple resistor. The resistor does consume power, though, but is usually needed since an 'ideal' 3.6 volt source is rarely available. Use Ohms law (Resistance(R)=Voltage(E)/Current(I)) to calculate the value and wattage needed: (R=E/I)Each white LED gives a voltage drop of 3.6 volts. As an example, for a 12 volt light, you can run a maximum of 3 white LEDs in series at full power (3.6 x 3 = 10.8 volts drop). Subtract this from your supply voltage of 12 volts to get the additional voltage that must be dropped (in this case, 12 - 10.8 = 1.2 volts of additional drop needed). In this case, 1.2 volts of additional drop / .025 amps (25 ma) = 48 ohms. Use the next highest value of resistor available, 50 ohms. You must also be sure the resistor can handle enough current. Volts x Amps = Watts; resistors are rated in watts. So in this case, 1.2 volts x .025 amps = 0.03 watts. A 1/4 watt resistor will work fine, but if you run a second string of 3 LEDs in parallel, each string would need its own 50 ohm resistor. It's important that each string has its own resistor....putting them in parallel with a single resistor is bad practice.
This method is cheap and works great, but there's one problem--voltages in a remote power system (or car, for that matter) tend to vary. In our home system, voltages range from about 12 volts when the batteries are low up to 14 volts when equalizing the battery bank. An LED lamp string designed to run at 25 milliamps at 12 volts would be pushing 64 ma at 14 volts, which would be very bright and PROBABLY last at least a few hundred hours...but then then when your batteries are low, the LEDs will pull only 10ma or so, making them very dim. If you are looking for maximum lifespan (which could be over 10 years of run time) and brightness that doesn't vary with your battery condition, try a voltage regulator circuit (below).So, we highly recommend a simple voltage regulator chip for the safety of your LEDs. White LEDs are expensive, and it would be a shame to blow them out. Parts for a current-limiting circuit are very cheap--less than $2. Use the Ohm's law calculations above to select the resistor for the voltage you choose. Or, use the regulator in a current-limiting configuration to run the LEDs. You can also use an LM317 adjustable voltage regulator set to the exact current level needed by your strings of LEDs. See the circuit diagrams

Hope that helps
 

crunkyeah

Well-Known Member
Sorry I didn't mention it in my post earlier Dragger, but the new heatsink I will be using is a finned heatsink. Measures 8.5" x 12" and has tons of aluminum fins. I decided against the cookie sheet even though they tolerate heat very well ;)

And riddleme, I have seen the circuit diagrams before but I think you're missing a few things. The LedEngin LEDs that I was looking at draw the 1A, not these Luxeons that I have found superior. They run at a max of 700mA. So using the DC to DC current regulator, I'm doing exactly what I want to do, keep the current going through the LEDs at 700mA. As long as there is enough power coming from the power supply and enough volts to cross all LEDs in the series, they should have their max voltage, max current, and max watts. Correct?

I'm gonna link where I found most of the driver information out, here and here.

I really appreciate the help guys ;)
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Correct, and I'm not trying to argue, rather trying to help you better understand

also know (and I see this all the time) if you run leds "hot" they get HOT and actually burn the circuit board, so the need to cool this thing info is real
 

crunkyeah

Well-Known Member
Mmhmm I know you're tryin to help man, and I truly do appreciate it :)

I also chose the Luxeons for this reason too, they run at 700mA instead of 1A so they shouldn't produce quite as much heat. But yeah trust me I totally understand these things get HOT HOT. That's why I will be using an aluminum heatsink with a whole bunch of fins on the other side of it. I guess it increases the surface area for the heat to be dissipated when you have the fins there. And on top of that I will be having a fan mounted above the fins so that it's blowing on the back of the heatsink. Hell, I might even have 2 and a few PC fans for exhaust/intake/circulation etc etc.

My setup will be similar to this guy's reef panel. He only uses 2 fan per like 24 LEDs and some of his are run at 1A. He said with the heatsink and no fans it gets warm to the touch, but with the fan it stays completely cool. I figure he's running like 40 LEDs and I'll only be running 12, so I should be in the clear.
 

crunkyeah

Well-Known Member
Wow, I never knew something like this could have so many different factors to think about. I was thinking good and hard about if I made any crucial errors when planning this LED panel. And unfortunately I have found one. I planned on having 6 Luxeon TRI-stars attached together in a series, connected to a 700mA driver, connected to my 24v power supply. I should have thought this out a little more clearly! 6 stars with 3 LEDs on each is a total of 18 LEDs in the series. With each LED needing roughly 3.6v to operate, I will not be able to use 6 tri-stars per series. It would be 2(2x3 die=6 total).

This presents a major problem. Since I can only use 2 stars per series, I would need 6 series. So first off, I would need an additional 4 LED drivers(at 20 bucks a piece that's too much for me). On top of that I may have to upgrade power supplies. That being said, I have scrapped the idea of using the tri-star in favor of the normal Luxeon Rebel Star. Every wavelength will be the same. It will all stay the same except for the number of diodes I'm going to use.

This new plan will be something like:
12 red: 6 red-orange: 6 royal blue(I have removed the warm whites for 2 reasons, it will be a pure purple appearance to the whole panel, and they are more expensive than the reds)

So that's 4 sets of 6 LEDs.
2 red, 1 red-orange, 1 royal blue
So in total it will be 60w(24 x ~2.5w) and about 2.8A(4 x .7A)

For those interested in cost, it's a roughly 330 bucks for everything, minus mounting supplies. Any donations appreciated :wink:

Picture attached is what it's going to look like once wiring has been done. Gaps between the squares measure out to 1 inch, so each led has quite a bit of room in terms of heat management. And just for those confused why I have one power supply loaded up, I did this because the blue LEDs shouldn't work on the same circuit as the reds because the forward voltage is different. Question for the electronic gurus. Could I load it up so 2 reds go to one power supply, and the red-orange and blue go to the other?
 

crunkyeah

Well-Known Member
Thanks lol, it's not nearly there yet. Still much work and research to do. It's a never ending quest I swear haha
 

N Buds

Member
take a look at www.ledgrow.eu

the guy there hasn't begun his next grow with a new setup even though he said he would in february before he edited his web page to say march.. april.. etc..

but.. he's got 5 or 6 journals and some excellent DIY info.. anyone interested in LED growing should really take a look..
 

crunkyeah

Well-Known Member
Thanks for that heads up N Buds, I have already seen Hans progress. It is definitely the inspiration for this grow. My grow won't be quite as big as his was, but I'm hoping to pull the same kinda weight.

I definitely agree though, his work is definitely leaps and bounds ahead of most of the LED users out there. While they are having success using commercially made panels, I don't think the new wave of LEDs are going to work like that. There will be a day when the UFO becomes obsolete, and the 5w and 10w diodes will be the new 'craze'. How long though, it's really hard to say unless companies start buying out these higher power LEDs. Right now the 1w and 2w diodes are in. But just wait ;) I'm betting it will be a booming business in 10 years.
 

Professor Puff.n.Tuff

Active Member
I have been skimming through this thread for the last couple minutes. I built my own boards and used them for a while so the thread caught my interest. Sounds like you have done a lot of research, definitely takes a lot...

Have you considered using a 120v power supply for a lap top or something instead of batteries?

Also I noticed you are planning on using 40 degree viewing angle LED's - You may want to find something that has a wider viewing angle. Unless the lights is far away from the plants or you have them clustered close enough you will end up with spot lights instead of A light.

If you are planning on building a board or multiple boards with 24 LED's per board you will not need fans - the air circulation from your room will be adequate without heat sinks and fans. It is not an enclosed board with hundreds of LED's, the inverter or batteries in it like the commercially made ones. You wont have much heat.

One more thing too. I have not found any research that indicates that you need so many different light rays. You should be fine with red and blue with the proper ratio... Also I have found that the plants love the intense light rays from the LED but they still like the white from florescents or HPS/MH.
 

crunkyeah

Well-Known Member
Ohhh nice, thanks for stopping by! Just curious, when you were building your panels did you use the 3w or 5w diodes? Or were you using the 5mm and 10mm ones? I have done so many countless hours of research and I've found it never ends! But I don't mind, I think I may be a bit of a researcher by nature so it's all gravy. ;)

There is simply no way I could use a 120v power supply. I'm assuming you mean AC too, since there are very very few DC power supplies that put out 120v. Trust me I've looked. The max I've found is about 100. The diodes that I'm using, they advise that they should be in strings or series no larger than 6. Even from a logical aspect this seems like a very smart thing to do. Let's say I've built my panel(which isn't the same as the last one I posted, I will update that after this post) and I have wired up 12 LEDs on one string. Let's say each runs at 3v and 350mA. First off, we're needing a power supply that has an output of at least 36v, and .35A. This is theoretically possible, but is not smart for a couple of reasons. 1, you're going to be paying for a good power supply and be drawing nearly no amps out of it. Kind of makes it pointless to buy a good supply and then not use it to it's potential. 2, if 1 LED in the string goes out, it will create an open circuit. Therefor if one LED goes out 11 more go out. Not a good situation if you have to wait weeks to get a new LED. Now if you have only 6 diodes, you will use 18v and draw once again .35A. If one goes out, only 5 more go out. I think we could both agree 6 LEDs going out are better than 12. Another thing about power supplies, laptop power supplies simply will not work without a current regulator on them. They have spikes in current, which raises voltage which lets more current in which increases voltage..you get the picture :P It creates a loop which will eventually overdrive the LEDs and fry them. I don't know where you got the batteries from, I have never thought about using batteries until I saw a solar panel setup... but that's another story!

Onto the viewing angle, I have actually decided to tighten up the optics on the LEDs. This will give me a more focused intense light on the canopy, so that more light isn't be reflected off the walls of my cab. This as we know from CFLs, MH, and HPS is not as intense as direct light.

Now for the heat..I WILL need to use both a good solid aluminum heatsink AND fans. I will be drawing 1.75A onto a panel that's 8.5" x 13". That's a lot of current to dissipate. Even if I didn't 'need' the fans, I would still add them because LED life and intensity increases the closer you can get to 0 degrees Celsius. The optimal temperature is 25C or 77F. In the room I have 73 is about the normal temperature, so I will obviously have higher temps running almost 2 amps through my panel. Thus the cooling fans.

And as for the spectrums, see in my next post.
 

crunkyeah

Well-Known Member
Once more, the design for my custom LED panel has changed. This is mostly due to number crunching and looking at the data sheets for the Luxeon Rebel LEDs I'll be using. The biggest influence factor here is temperature. LEDs are more efficient at lower temperatures. What affects temperature in LEDs the most? Well being that LEDs are current driven devices...you guessed it! Current. So I have decided to cut the current in half, down to 350mA. In turn, this lowers voltage required to power the LEDs. Lower voltage and lower amps means lower watts. So the 60w panel I designed before, will now only be putting out 24.5w. To combat this, I will be adding 6 more LEDs to the mix.

Now for the spectrums part. I have since decided to not use both the orange spectrum and warm white spectrum. Orange because it has a tendency to create hermies, and white is simply not needed. So in total my spectrums will be 447.5, 465nm, 626nm, and 650nm. This doesn't have the important 660 spectrum, but I would have to totally redesign my panels with a different MFG and I decided that's too much work. Enough as it is ;)

Onto the panel itself. The panel I have chosen is 8.5" by 13". I have chosen this length so that each LED has about 1 square inch of surface to dissipate heat all by itself. I don't want them too close, but too far either. I would use 2 inches between LEDs if I could afford the heatsink that big. The one I'm looking at is only 35 bucks or so, which isn't too bad. So the total surface area of this heat sink is .7 feet.

Now a bit about the optics. The LEDs have a standard viewing angle of 120 degrees. So if I built my panel and did not use optics, I have 2 options. Lower the panel down to my plants so the light isn't dispersed all over the place, losing efficiency. Or I could leave them higher up and have really stretchy plants. I have only 2 vertical feet to work with once you add in the pot size and thickness of the LED panel. So at 2 feet and 120 viewing angle I get a beam diameter of 6.9 feet. This is huge, this is twice the square footage of my grow area. So roughly half of the light will be reflected off the walls, losing more efficiency. Now if I use optics and tighten up the viewing angle to 12 degrees, I get a .42 feet(or 3 inches) spread from each LED. So now we're looking at a coverage area of 10" x 14.5". So this light will cover about a foot and a half of INTENSELY focused light. No light will be reflected off the walls(or very little light). I have told people it's the same exact aspect as a flashlight.

You can focus it to one really narrow bright beam or one really wide beam that covers the whole room. The really intense light is what you want. I hope people can understand my reasoning here. I'm working with a little more than 2 square footage in my cabinet, so to help out with the side lighting I will be adding my 4 LED panels to the sides of the cab to help with the undergrowth and to even out the light distribution.

Now onto the power supply and electrical stuff.
The red LEDs draw 2.9v @ 350mA, blues draw 3.15v @ 350mA.
I need to multiply times six for the number of LEDs I'm using per string. I use the blue LEDs because they have a higher voltage. 3.15 * 6 = 18.9
I will be using 5 string of LEDs, 4 red and 1 blue in the middle.
5 * .35A(350mA) = 1.75A

If you use Ohm's Law to calculate wattage:
Red - 2.9v * .35A = 1.015w(rounding to 1w)
Blue - 3.15 * .35 = 1.0125w(rounding to 1w)
Since I'll be using 30 total LEDs - 30 * 1w = 30w

So I need a power supply that has constant current capabilities, puts out at least 18.9v, 1.75A, and 30w.

I have found the Meanwell PLN-100-24. It puts out 24v at 4A, 96w. I used this one because it's current and voltage regulating. It will also be mounted near a fan to aid in cooling, and increase the life of the supply. It will also be operated at less than half of it's capabilities so I think it should last quite some time.

I have attached 4 pictures, 1 of a heat sink like the one I will be using, 1 of the power supply, 1 of the design on that heat sink, and 1 of the lens I'll be using.
 

crunkyeah

Well-Known Member
Thank you so much riddleme :) Glad you approve!!!

My only question is: what's the most efficient way to join 5 wires together? I was thinking solder would be good but I'm no electrician. I also plan on using 16 gauge wire, does this sound about right?
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Thank you so much riddleme :) Glad you approve!!!

My only question is: what's the most efficient way to join 5 wires together? I was thinking solder would be good but I'm no electrician. I also plan on using 16 gauge wire, does this sound about right?
solder is best, things like butt connectors will oxidize over time and cause problems, 16 gauge wire will be fine

soldering is actuially pretty easy to learn the key is to heat the joint and apply the solder to the joint (not the iron) as soon as it flows remove the iron, when I was teaching I had students make necklaces out of 1 inch pieces of wire by the time you get 20 to 30 of em soldered together you pretty much can see when it's good (right) also you want the solder to dry shinny if it is dull you got it too hot
 

crunkyeah

Well-Known Member
Huh, sounds good. I'll have to do some practice then. After all 5 are connected and then soldered to the power supply output wires, should I wrap electrical tape around the bare wire or what should I do about that? Don't think it's safe to have live wires just hanging there.
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Huh, sounds good. I'll have to do some practice then. After all 5 are connected and then soldered to the power supply output wires, should I wrap electrical tape around the bare wire or what should I do about that? Don't think it's safe to have live wires just hanging there.
here is what I use every day (we buy it in big rolls) the link is a search of all the different ones they have
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/browse/Heat%20Shrink/3831387

you won't need that much and the diameter just needs to be 2 times the size of the joint it's covering, I use 1.5 to 2 inch pieces to cover a solder point

electrical tape will break down over time
 

crunkyeah

Well-Known Member
Looks good, thanks for the advice and help man. Now I just need to rustle together the funds to get everything. ;)
 
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