West virginia mine explosion

[abe23]

When you stuff regulatory agencies with industry insiders who will be forgiving and lax about enforcing rules, it's backdoor deregulation. This is what bush did with federal agencies like the EPA and SEC. Don't you think the SEC might have caught madoff earlier if they had actually been looking for fraud and abuse? And remember christie todd-whitman? One of the very few republicans I respect for being principled and honest...she got muscled out as EPA administrator because she wouldn't play ball. Whether you deregulate by changing laws or choosing not to enforce existing ones, the result is the same: polluted rivers, unsafe mines and financial gambling that puts the whole system at risk.

And doc111, i know that lines like that are an easy way to avoid the issue, but I'm sure you can do better than that. I know conservatives don't want to talk about the last 8 years, but they did happen... I too wish I could just erase them from memory but alas. " s/ It's all bush's fault /s" is just a convenient way for conservatives to deflect any discussion. It's like the tea partiers who are constantly going on about how they aren't racist. Nobody, except janine gerofolo, actually thinks that. It's just a way for them to pose as victims and avoid talking about what it actually means when you advocate cutting taxes and want to reduce deficits at the same time.

 

[doc111]

When you stuff regulatory agencies with industry insiders who will be forgiving and lax about enforcing rules, it's backdoor deregulation. This is what bush did with federal agencies like the EPA and SEC. Don't you think the SEC might have caught madoff earlier if they had actually been looking for fraud and abuse? And remember christie todd-whitman? One of the very few republicans I respect for being principled and honest...she got muscled out as EPA administrator because she wouldn't play ball. Whether you deregulate by changing laws or choosing not to enforce existing ones, the result is the same: polluted rivers, unsafe mines and financial gambling that puts the whole system at risk.

And doc111, i know that lines like that are an easy way to avoid the issue, but I'm sure you can do better than that. I know conservatives don't want to talk about the last 8 years, but they did happen... I too wish I could just erase them from memory but alas. " s/ It's all bush's fault /s" is just a convenient way for conservatives to deflect any discussion. It's like the tea partiers who are constantly going on about how they aren't racist. Nobody, except janine gerofolo, actually thinks that. It's just a way for them to pose as victims and avoid talking about what it actually means when you advocate cutting taxes and want to reduce deficits at the same time.

You brought up Bush, not me. Bush is gone. I'm not deflecting anything. I think we both agree that regulations are necessary and need to be enforced but always blaming Bush is pretty weak my friend. I wasn't a fan of the guy either but I don't go around blaming him for everything. Where is your proof that Bush ordered any regulatory agency to not do its job?

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Abe, all the regulations in the world won't cure corruption. In fact, more regulations equate to more corruption if you choose to ignore the corruption.

The state regulators fucked up. They should be investigated and prosecuted.

 

[medicineman]

You brought up Bush, not me. Bush is gone. I'm not deflecting anything. I think we both agree that regulations are necessary and need to be enforced but always blaming Bush is pretty weak my friend. I wasn't a fan of the guy either but I don't go around blaming him for everything. Where is your proof that Bush ordered any regulatory agency to not do its job?

The proof is virtually in the pudding, Doc. Those sneaky Justice Lawyers that bush put in place made sure that it would be nigh on to impossible to prove it, but the facts remain. Under Bush, deregulation was the norm, on wall street, the banks, industry in general, and eliminating OSHA was a big prize for the Bush man. Yeah, I can see why he was one of your heros.

 

[abe23]

Abe, all the regulations in the world won't cure corruption. In fact, more regulations equate to more corruption if you choose to ignore the corruption.

The state regulators fucked up. They should be investigated and prosecuted.

That might be true in zimbabwe, but we have a pretty effective criminal justice system to deal with corrupt civil servants. In fact, rooting out political corruption is one of the things the FBI is pretty good at...

Is your logic then that since issuing permits for moose hunting allows for some corruption by state wildlife officials, we should just let people shoot as many baby moose as they want all year round? Do you really hate baby moose that much, johnny?

And doc....please show me where I blamed everything on bush. I brought that up as an example of what happens when you let the pollution lobby run the EPA or the mortage-backed securities pushers in charge of the SEC. I'll make sure I only pick examples that predate 2000 so as not to offend your bush sensitivities. ...

 

[medicineman]

That might be true in zimbabwe, but we have a pretty effective criminal justice system to deal with corrupt civil servants. In fact, rooting out political corruption is one of the things the FBI is pretty good at...

Is your logic then that since issuing permits for moose hunting allows for some corruption by state wildlife officials, we should just let people shoot as many baby moose as they want all year round? Do you really hate baby moose that much, johnny?

And doc....please show me where I blamed everything on bush. I brought that up as an example of what happens when you let the pollution lobby run the EPA or the mortage-backed securities pushers in charge of the SEC. I'll make sure I only pick examples that predate 2000 so as not to offend your bush sensitivities. ...

Boy, not me, I'll defend my right to blame most of it on Bush. Notice how the right never brings up the cost of the wars. Under Bush, they were unfunded (off the books). Obama put them into the budget deficit, right there is about 5 trillion bucks, and they wonder why the deficit is so huge, I guess right wing economics doesn't count wars as an expense, just social programs.

 

[doc111]

The proof is virtually in the pudding, Doc. Those sneaky Justice Lawyers that bush put in place made sure that it would be nigh on to impossible to prove it, but the facts remain. Under Bush, deregulation was the norm, on wall street, the banks, industry in general, and eliminating OSHA was a big prize for the Bush man. Yeah, I can see why he was one of your heros.

Can you not read? I said that I was not a fan of Bush. Republicans tend to favor less regulation and smaller govt. Bush may have gone too far in the direction of less regulation and he went totally opposite as far as smaller govt. is concerned. I'm not a fan of big govt. hence I didn't care for a lot of things he did. I think it's pretty tired of the left to always be whining about Bush. Get some new shit to complain about already!

As for the regulation part, let's make the regulatory agencies responsible for policing these industries accountable. There's been a new sheriff in town for a while now so why doesn't he simply say "I'm going to see to it that penalties are enforced and when these tragedies happen we will aggressively investigate the root cause and take steps to fix the problem." Remember we don't even know what caused this explosion yet. I'll wait for the investigation to give its findings before I go and start crucifying people.

 

[medicineman]

Can you not read? I said that I was not a fan of Bush. Republicans tend to favor less regulation and smaller govt. Bush may have gone too far in the direction of less regulation and he went totally opposite as far as smaller govt. is concerned. I'm not a fan of big govt. hence I didn't care for a lot of things he did. I think it's pretty tired of the left to always be whining about Bush. Get some new shit to complain about already!

As for the regulation part, let's make the regulatory agencies responsible for policing these industries accountable. There's been a new sheriff in town for a while now so why doesn't he simply say "I'm going to see to it that penalties are enforced and when these tragedies happen we will aggressively investigate the root cause and take steps to fix the problem." Remember we don't even know what caused this explosion yet. I'll wait for the investigation to give its findings before I go and start crucifying people.

Here's a clue, 41 republicans voting in harmony will not allow anything suggested by Obama to go through, Duhhhh.

 

[abe23]

I'll wait for the investigation to give its findings before I go and start crucifying people.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126072828&ps=cprs

Massey Energy CEO Don Blankenship was paid $17.8 million last year even as some of the coal mines he supervised accumulated safety violations and injuries at rates that greatly exceed national rates.

That 2009 pay represents a $6.8 million raise over 2008 and almost double his compensation package in 2007.

In the year it paid Blankenship $17.8 million in salary, bonuses and perks, Massey Energy was assessed $12.9 million in proposed fines for safety violations. Massey has appealed three-quarters of those fines.

I'm ready to crucify.... Or maybe throw is ass down the coal mine...

 

[Johnnyorganic]

That might be true in zimbabwe, but we have a pretty effective criminal justice system to deal with corrupt civil servants. In fact, rooting out political corruption is one of the things the FBI is pretty good at...

Is your logic then that since issuing permits for moose hunting allows for some corruption by state wildlife officials, we should just let people shoot as many baby moose as they want all year round? Do you really hate baby moose that much, johnny?

And doc....please show me where I blamed everything on bush. I brought that up as an example of what happens when you let the pollution lobby run the EPA or the mortage-backed securities pushers in charge of the SEC. I'll make sure I only pick examples that predate 2000 so as not to offend your bush sensitivities. ...

Specious reasoning aside, the solution is more aggressive enforcement of existing regulation. Not more regulation.

 

[doc111]

Here's a clue, 41 republicans voting in harmony will not allow anything suggested by Obama to go through, Duhhhh.

I have no idea what you are talking about so yes, perhaps I am stupid (or maybe just really baked).

 

[doc111]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126072828&ps=cprs





I'm ready to crucify.... Or maybe throw is ass down the coal mine...

This may or may not be relevant to this particular disaster. We don't know yet. I favor letting the justice system (as jacked up as it is) do its job over assuming his guilt in the court of public opinion.

I may have exaggerated a bit when I said "blaming Bush for everything" but I was simply making a point, as were you I believe.

 

[ViRedd]

Wait ... Bush was in office for seven months when 9-11 came down, and the Left blamed Bush for it.

Obama has been in office 14 months now ... and the mine disaster is still Bush's fault?

Go figure.

 

[DubsFan]

As a card carrying republican I can say I'm not a big union buff. But when my buddies and I discuss jobs and unions the cliche phrase we use is "it's not like the cashier at Safeway needs a union like a coal miner." Most of the left arent' radicals and most of the right are not neo cons or whatever the new phrase is.

I subscribe to the 10/80/10 rule. 10% are over the top, 10% couldn't care less then there is the 80% silent majority. In general many feel that dangerous work environments need unions, but someone scanning a bottle over a little lazer that goes "boop" doesn't. Unions I feel are holding back the key to education... voucher programs and probably have sunk American auto's to their lowest levels. The deals are too sweet for employees.

Many states spend way more per child than most private schools. But these teachers unions don't want teachers to lose jobs to a superior platform like private school.

For the record. I was a union carpenter in the Bay just out of high school and I attended Catholic School 1st - 8th grade. At 18 I could see the union racket but it took me till i was about 25 to recognize how crucial my private education was to my life. Unions are like AIG and all those other fat cats, too big too fail. They need to be dismantled.

I feel like it's all broken.

 

[doc111]

Wait ... Bush was in office for seven months when 9-11 came down, and the Left blamed Bush for it.

Obama has been in office 14 months now ... and the mine disaster is still Bush's fault?

Go figure.

Exactly my point. I have a feeling Bush will be getting blamed by the left for all that is wrong in Washington for some time to come.

 

[abe23]

No....your point is that you want to want to talk about how every 'liberal' wants to talk about bush rather than talk about regulation and oversight. That's cool, though. ViRedd is right there with you. You two can talk about how all we 'liberals' want to talk about is how bush fucked everything up. Ok?

The point is that this guy doubled his salary in 2 years to 17 million, while amassing almost 13 million in fines for safety violations. But yeah. We need to wait until this fucker gets his day in court. It would be unfair to prejudge, right? Fuck that! As long as there are assholes like this guy running these industries, we need tough regulation and strong unions to protect workers and consumers. I know you guys like your little laissez-faire, zero regulation utopia but guys like this and his buddies over at goldman sachs would fuck that up in no time.

 

[undertheice]

The point is that this guy doubled his salary in 2 years to 17 million, while amassing almost 13 million in fines for safety violations. But yeah. We need to wait until this fucker gets his day in court. It would be unfair to prejudge, right? Fuck that! As long as there are assholes like this guy running these industries, we need tough regulation and strong unions to protect workers and consumers. I know you guys like your little laissez-faire, zero regulation utopia but guys like this and his buddies over at goldman sachs would fuck that up in no time.

so we want the rich to be judged in the court of public opinion, the poor and the liberal establishment not to be judged at all? $13 million in fines and not one regulator thought to halt those abuses by shutting things down until safety could be restored? as long as the money was rolling in, the bureaucrats were happy and all was right with the world. i'd agree that the laissez-faire folks are living in a bit of a dream world, but what sort of nightmare does government micro-management and the dictatorship of the proletariat create? this case has already shown us that government is more than happy with the status quo as long as they are getting paid and the greed of the unions can be rather easily seen in their willingness enforce and expand their sweet-heart deals in the face of a crumbling economy. still we demand our pound of flesh from only one source, based solely on the size of his bank account. i say fine, go ahead and take that pound of flesh (hell, take two), but accuse regulating agencies, willing to allow dangerous practices to continue as long as the proper fines are being paid, as well. be sure to reserve a bit of that blame for the workers themselves, who must retain some personal responsibility for the risks they knew they were taking to bring home that paycheck. while you're at it, don't forget the unions. even though they weren't active at that mine, their history of abuses and and often outrageous demands has engendered a sense of fear in the community of investors and leaves them far from blameless.

it's perfectly natural and a positive step that such tragedies lead us to condemn those at fault and strengthen any movement leading to an improvement in safety standards. we just shouldn't stop at the obvious culprits and allow government to use it all as an excuse to reinforce a deficient system, heaping even more bad regulations on top of those that already exist. a single good law is worth more than a thousand bad or inefficient ones.

 

[doc111]

No....your point is that you want to want to talk about how every 'liberal' wants to talk about bush rather than talk about regulation and oversight. That's cool, though. ViRedd is right there with you. You two can talk about how all we 'liberals' want to talk about is how bush fucked everything up. Ok?

The point is that this guy doubled his salary in 2 years to 17 million, while amassing almost 13 million in fines for safety violations. But yeah. We need to wait until this fucker gets his day in court. It would be unfair to prejudge, right? Fuck that! As long as there are assholes like this guy running these industries, we need tough regulation and strong unions to protect workers and consumers. I know you guys like your little laissez-faire, zero regulation utopia but guys like this and his buddies over at goldman sachs would fuck that up in no time.

You've got blinders on abe. I made my point. You made yours. Fair enough. I don't think that Bush had anything to do with this disaster yet you and your liberal cronies want to blame everything that goes wrong on him. I don't like the guy much either but come on man! OSHA, the SEC and whatever alphabet soup regulatory agency has a job to do. They need to enforce the regulations that are in place. If their bosses are telling them not to enforce said regulations then we have a problem. I see no evidence of that and until I do I'll reserve judgement. There is more to this story than you or I will ever know yet you think you have all the answers. This is part of the problem witht this country. Whenever something like this goes wrong we are so quick to judge and convict them.........without a fair trial! If it can be done to one, it can be done to all and I don't want to be tried in the court of public opinion if I fuck up!

 

[abe23]

I'm not actually advocating that this man be thrown down a mineshaft without a trial...that would be barbaric. It was purely rhetorical because this sort of thing does make me very angry. And I understand due process and the legal system, but that doesn't stop me from making my own judgement of this miserable piece of shit based on the information that is available.

Massey Energy, the company which owns the Upper Big Branch coal mine in West Virginia, was cited for 2,400 safety violations in its 10 coal mines last year by the Mine Safety and Health Administration (MSHA). The Upper Big Branch coal mine was the site of the worst coal mining disaster in the United States in decades, with 29 miners losing their lives to a massive explosion.
The proposed fines from those violations would have cost Massey over $12 million. Meanwhile, Massey Energy CEO Don Blankenship earned $17.8 million last year compared to the average coal miner who puts his life on the line every time he decends into a Massy coal mine, and earns about $68K per year.
NPR News reported that Massey’s 10 coal mines had injury rates that more than doubled the national rate.
This week, the MSHA reported that the Upper Big Branch Mine had "repeated significant and substantial [safety] violations" last year, 19 times more than the national rate. MSHA characterized these violations as safety hazards "the mine operator either knew, or should have known, constituted a hazard." 48 of those violations resulted in immediate “withdrawal orders” in which the miners were pulled from the mine until the problems were shown to be corrected.
The corporate coal mining standard is to legally challenge MSHA safety violations, thus rendering them impotent for long periods of time. Massey Energy has appealed three-quarters of the fines levied against them.
In a proxy statement filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission for an upcoming Massey Energy shareholders meeting in May, NPR News reports a compensation formula “that includes corporate earnings, productivity of company mines, environmental violations and work time lost to injuries.”
Under Blankenship’s watch, he is credited with a 13.9 percent reduction in workdays lost due to nonfatal injury, an achievement that would have been applauded by the stockholders had it not been for the unfortunate body count following the April 5th disaster. Some of those stockholders are now asking for his resignation, but is it enough? Whether directly or indirectly, Blankenship and the directors of Massey Energy, along with those who are responsible for the mine's day-to-day operations, as well as its legal advisors who fight the MSHA every step of the way, are guilty of the murder of 29 innocent men.
Conservatives regularly site government regulations and oversight as stifling to productivity which they claim translates into loss of profit, and ultimately the loss of jobs. Any attempt at stiffer government regulation is quickly labeled as “government takeover” as we witnessed in the health care insurance reform battle these past months. In reality, regulations are intended to avoid disasters like the Wall Street and banking industry meltdown last year, and in the case of industry safety standards, they are intended to save lives. Massey Energy and its wealthy executives used every legal loophole its attorney’s could find to side-step those regulations, and as a result 29 hardworking men lost their lives.
Until corporate executives are held personally and criminally responsible for human tragedy caused as a result of their corporate decisions and actions, we will continue to see big business flip-the-bird at government regulators, unions, and endangered workers, as they skim all the cream off the top, and leave nothing but a small amount of curdled, poisonous skim milk at the bottom of the barrel for the lowly workers who are actually the backbone of their corporate cash cow.

Source: NPR.org

Again, I'm not earnestly advocating a lynch mob...I'm just saying that this guy is a piece of shit who probably deserves to be suffocating somewhere in a mineshaft.

And it seems like we actually all agree here. We want the regulators to do their job and make sure that assholes like don't get away with putting profit over the safety of their workers. There's going to be an investigation, so we will know the details at some point. But do you guys think that if the regulators slapped these people with 515 citations in 6 months and 13 million worth of fines in two years, they wouldn't have shut the mine down if that had realistically been in their powers?

And doc, there's a lot of information out there about how the SEC and other agencies weren't doing their jobs properly because of the previous administration's anti-regulation, pro-industry attitude. You're probably not going to find it on fox news though. Why did christie todd-whitman resign as head of the EPA? Why didn't the SEC catch bernie madoff and his ponzi scheme?

 

[undertheice]

If it can be done to one, it can be done to all.....

this is something that is conveniently left out of every argument for increased regulation, the expansion of government's responsibilities and the mob rule of true democracy. we want to be protected. we want poverty erased. we want the guilty punished and their victims' suffering eased. we want so many things and consider the strength of the state to be the best way to go about getting them. we forget that we are all guilty of something in someone else's eyes and that each bit of power we relinquish to others can be turned against us. how many times have we heard that the innocent have no need to fear the law or that it is the wealthy that should bear the lion's share of the cost of running the country? we forget that we all do things that someone else disagrees with and that they may very well decide should be illegal. we forget that there will always be someone with less than us and that they may decide to confiscate what little we have - for "the good of society".

government is the only entity that we consider trustworthy enough to use force to attain its ends, but we all admit it is flawed and corrupt. government is the only entity with the capacity to quell any insurrection through the use of violence, but we allow it to continue to "build the case" for the use of that violence. government is the only entity that can determine for itself how much of what you have can be confiscated and used for its own purposes, but we continue to demand that it be allowed an ever growing piece of the financial pie.