Mycorrhizal fungi applications for cannabis - the caveats

[Jerry Garcia]

UB,

I picked up some mycorrhizae granules the other day. It has 8 different types of endo and ecto mycorrhizae and it lists each propagules/gram.

12510 propagules/gram--Pisolithus tinctorius
317 propagules/gram--Rhizopogon rubescens
317 propagules/gram--Rhizopogon fulvigleba
317 propagules/gram--Rhizopogon villesuius
317 propagules/gram--Rhizopogon subcarelescens
2.46 propagules/gram--Glomus intraradices
2.46 propagules/gram--Glomus aggregatum
2.46 propagules/gram--Glomus mossaea

The manufacturer is HydroOrganics Products (same people who make the Rainbow Mix that was discussed at some point in this thread I think) and the stuff is called Rooter's Mycorrhizae.

Here's a link

http://www.planetnatural.com/site/mycorrhizae.html

Thought it looked promising and was only $13 at my hydro store so if it doesn't work I'm not out that much...

 

[aeviaanah]

I use age old grow mycorrhizae. i read in urban garden magazine today that synthetic nutrients will not harm mycorrhizal fungi.

 

[DaveCoulier]

UB, if you check out this video, around 35 seconds onwards, you will see what I previously thought were Myco fungi. So according to the video, its just root hairs. My question is, why do not all of my roots develop these root hairs?

Thanks.

 

[Jerry Garcia]

Here is a quote from the link below regarding synthetic phosphate fertilizers and this product...

http://www.hydro-organics.com/ee_pc/EEPC20.html

ROOTERS MYCORRHIZAE
Contains a multitude of ecto/endo mycorrhizae selected to perform in a variety of environments to enhance the growth and vigor of the majority of plants. Can be applied to seed beds, rooting media, blended into potting soils, or introduced at planting. Apply during installation or aerification of turf. Complete directions on label. Do not apply in conjunction with synthetic forms of phosphate fertilizers. Organic fertilizers will enhance microbial activity and development of mycorrhizae.

 

[Bic]

They act like root hairs or 'fuzz' but are alot smaller creating a larger root surface area, which is a very good thing.

More roots = more root surface however plant cells i.e. root hairs cant replicate fungi which are much smaller.

Go look at a fractional pattern thats kinda what your root systems like and these fungi are alot smaller so you have a larger surface area on the same root length.

Ok its good thing.

 

[Uncle Ben]

UB,

I picked up some mycorrhizae granules the other day. It has 8 different types of endo and ecto mycorrhizae and it lists each propagules/gram.

12510 propagules/gram--Pisolithus tinctorius
317 propagules/gram--Rhizopogon rubescens
317 propagules/gram--Rhizopogon fulvigleba
317 propagules/gram--Rhizopogon villesuius
317 propagules/gram--Rhizopogon subcarelescens
2.46 propagules/gram--Glomus intraradices
2.46 propagules/gram--Glomus aggregatum
2.46 propagules/gram--Glomus mossaea

The manufacturer is HydroOrganics Products (same people who make the Rainbow Mix that was discussed at some point in this thread I think) and the stuff is called Rooter's Mycorrhizae.

Here's a link

http://www.planetnatural.com/site/mycorrhizae.html

Thought it looked promising and was only $13 at my hydro store so if it doesn't work I'm not out that much...

Can't hurt!

UB, if you check out this video, around 35 seconds onwards, you will see what I previously thought were Myco fungi. So according to the video, its just root hairs. My question is, why do not all of my roots develop these root hairs?

Thanks.

Root hairs are always in the process of dieing and being generated. Perhaps you're looking in the wrong places?

Speaking of phosphates you really need to go slow with them regarding the myco colony. I asked Dr. Linda about her aversion to using high amounts of phosphates relative to the myco population. She explained to me that the plant exudes acids and carbos via the roots and when too much P is present at the roots it shuts down this output and consequently the synergistic process between plant roots and the fungi. These fungi are harvesters of P for the plant. If you hit your plants too hard with P, your plants will still get their P needs taking care of, just in a different mode. Call her up for clarification, but this is what I got out of our conversation. A technician at my myco source said the same thing - you don't need to exclude P in your synthetic plant foods, just don't go crazy with it.

 

[Atomizer]

UB, if you check out this video, around 35 seconds onwards, you will see what I previously thought were Myco fungi. So according to the video, its just root hairs. My question is, why do not all of my roots develop these root hairs?

Thanks.

They are wet. Root hair production is greatest with a high air/water ratio.
As an example, roots growing into voids (worm holes etc) in soil will produce abundant root hair growth on the root section in the void.

 

[Wetdog]

This fungi is found naturally in soils unless they are sterilized with something like heat or Vapam.

True, but for sure not in my peat based soil less mix.

Wet

 

[Uncle Ben]

Why does the myth of phosphorus-induced root stimulation persist? The answer probably lies in the effect phosphorus fertilizers have on mycorrhizal relationships. When plant roots are in low phosphorus environments, they exude organic acids from their root tips. These acids allow mycorrhizal fungi to penetrate the roots and form the networks that assist plant roots in taking up water and nutrients.

Mycorrhizae are particularly adept at extracting phosphorus from the soil. If phosphorus levels are too high, however, the roots do not exude the organic acids and mycorrhizal connections do not form. This forces the plant to put more resources into root growth to compensate for the lack of mycorrhizae. So in a sense phosphorus will increase root growth – but at an added cost to the plant. The resources expended by the plant in growing additional roots to take the place of mycorrhizae are not available for other plant needs.

Shrub and tree species that are mycorrhizae-dependent have a difficult time surviving in soils where mycorrhizae cannot develop. In particular, seedlings and newly transplanted materials are less efficient in absorbing water and minerals from the soil and are more likely to suffer transplant shock than plants where mycorrhizae are present. Adding mycorrhizal spores to soils where phosphorus is too high is ineffective – the spores will remain dormant.

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Bonemeal.pdf

 

[dakin3d]

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Bonemeal.pdf

Whats up, UB? Thank you for posting this latest link, it is much appreciated. I'm always interested in hearing more on this topic.

Switching gears a bit... I was interested, so I went to Dr. C-Scott's website and was checking out the blog area for professors: https://sharepoint.cahnrs.wsu.edu/blogs/urbanhort/archive/2010/02/17/international-ag-labs-who-are-they-and-what-do-they-do.aspx#postComments

I noticed that the only 2 comments on this post were from individuals stating their experiences in researching the said topic. They both comment on the amount of information on molasses. I thought it was interesting that the inclination I interpreted from both of their opinions was that of utter suspicion:

'2. What's with the molasses? Is this company connected with Jerry Baker? Molasses (or treacle, as they have it listed on another product) is primarily sugars and only 2% minerals. What good is it going to do other than making the ants, bees and a few other insects happy?'

'I’m fascinated by the amount of stuff about molasses I’m finding – an awful lot of it seems to be anecdotal/folksy. (My grandpa had a tablespoon every day and lived to be 90 and healthy! Must be great for the garden, too.)'

They act as if they've never heard of such a thing!

Im interested, UB, if you are familiar w/ azotobacter as a beneficial, and what the benefits are of its presence? Thanks.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Whats up, UB? Thank you for posting this latest link, it is much appreciated. I'm always interested in hearing more on this topic.

Switching gears a bit... I was interested, so I went to Dr. C-Scott's website and was checking out the blog area for professors: https://sharepoint.cahnrs.wsu.edu/blogs/urbanhort/archive/2010/02/17/international-ag-labs-who-are-they-and-what-do-they-do.aspx#postComments

I noticed that the only 2 comments on this post were from individuals stating their experiences in researching the said topic. They both comment on the amount of information on molasses. I thought it was interesting that the inclination I interpreted from both of their opinions was that of utter suspicion:

'2. What's with the molasses? Is this company connected with Jerry Baker? Molasses (or treacle, as they have it listed on another product) is primarily sugars and only 2% minerals. What good is it going to do other than making the ants, bees and a few other insects happy?'

'I’m fascinated by the amount of stuff about molasses I’m finding – an awful lot of it seems to be anecdotal/folksy. (My grandpa had a tablespoon every day and lived to be 90 and healthy! Must be great for the garden, too.)'

They act as if they've never heard of such a thing!

Im interested, UB, if you are familiar w/ azotobacter as a beneficial, and what the benefits are of its presence? Thanks.

Howdy, great info. Molasses is more of the anecdotal folksy stuff. Not familiar with that bacteria.

 

[grnTOMATOS]

Hey Jerry Garcia-
Why would you want ecto mycorrhizae for MJ cultivation?! Ecto mycorrhizae only associate with conifers and hardwood trees, what place does it have in this industry. Just goes to show the snake oils that are out there.

You need pure endo mycorrhizae, without all the masking agents like humic and fertilizer (hum hum myco apply, plant success, and great white).

You may want to try Myco Max by humboldt nutes or Mykos by xtreme gardening. Its a new product but they are the oldest mycorrhizae cultivators in the nation. Their spore counts are 100 X higher than mycorrhizal applications and they even have pedigrees DNA proving the strains in their products. You don't have to make believe that your getting results from the fungus and not the ferts/humic lol! Cant believe I used to get swindled by Dr Spike up in Oregon!

If your running DWC or Aeroponics, definitely get the Mykos M-Drops, shits hot. They sell their endo for $6.75/ lb and its been used to break the last 4 world records for giant veggie growth, 5 country records, and 12 state records. They had a school teacher grow a 1,725 lb pumpkin this last year using just their mykos, azos, and CO2.

check their website if want to know more....recommend the CO2 --- just sold my burner on craigslist because now that i have their topical foliar feed CO2, I no longer need the burner, its a waste of money.

 

[riddleme]

Hey Jerry Garcia-
Why would you want ecto mycorrhizae for MJ cultivation?! Ecto mycorrhizae only associate with conifers and hardwood trees, what place does it have in this industry. Just goes to show the snake oils that are out there.

You need pure endo mycorrhizae, without all the masking agents like humic and fertilizer (hum hum myco apply, plant success, and great white).

You may want to try Myco Max by humboldt nutes or Mykos by xtreme gardening. Its a new product but they are the oldest mycorrhizae cultivators in the nation. Their spore counts are 100 X higher than mycorrhizal applications and they even have pedigrees DNA proving the strains in their products. You don't have to make believe that your getting results from the fungus and not the ferts/humic lol! Cant believe I used to get swindled by Dr Spike up in Oregon!

If your running DWC or Aeroponics, definitely get the Mykos M-Drops, shits hot. They sell their endo for $6.75/ lb and its been used to break the last 4 world records for giant veggie growth, 5 country records, and 12 state records. They had a school teacher grow a 1,725 lb pumpkin this last year using just their mykos, azos, and CO2.

check their website if want to know more....recommend the CO2 --- just sold my burner on craigslist because now that i have their topical foliar feed CO2, I no longer need the burner, its a waste of money.

How about sharing a link ???

 

[wyteboi]

looks like tomato came off a lil harsh.
i have read plenty that the ecto only forms a relationship with 1 or 2% of the plants in the world. So there is proly no need for it and if your soil is good enough , you wont need any but i see no reason not to add a lil (endo) to the dirt or roots, just incase.
As far as the myco maxx goes, i didnt really pay attention to the count compared to others, i'll do that now.... I did see where the pumpkin record was broke , but thats their sales pitch.
heres the website .....i think.
http://www.mycorrhizae.com/item.php?pid=237&cid=12

 

[RogueReefer]

Has anyone tried Rick's Monster Grow Mix. It has mycorrhizae in it. just got some and put it on our plants at our legal grow. We will see how it goes, lol.

 

[grnTOMATOS]

How about sharing a link ???

How about sharing a link ???

Reforest.com, gardenfuels.com, great pumpkin commonwealth.com, xpertgardener.com, southeastern-organics.com, greenthumborganix.com, innovativegrowingsolutions.com, californiahydroponicsllc.com, greenjointventures.info/, grasscity.com. tomatoville.com, ect

That was just what comes up when you google mykos mycorrhizae and xtreme gardening.

Here's a link to the company story on their website:

www.Reforest.com/company

(sounds like they're on top of their game)

 

[grnTOMATOS]

looks like tomato came off a lil harsh.
i have read plenty that the ecto only forms a relationship with 1 or 2% of the plants in the world. So there is proly no need for it and if your soil is good enough , you wont need any but i see no reason not to add a lil (endo) to the dirt or roots, just incase.
As far as the myco maxx goes, i didnt really pay attention to the count compared to others, i'll do that now.... I did see where the pumpkin record was broke , but thats their sales pitch.
heres the website .....i think.
http://www.mycorrhizae.com/item.php?pid=237&cid=12

The link was for myco apply, its RTI that holds all the world records
www.Reforest.com

How is breaking 4 world-records a sales pitch, I thought that was kind of the results, not the pitch for the product. Are there any other mycorrhizae sources breaking world records? Please let me know, this could be commonplace I guess? or is it unique to RTI?

 

[grnTOMATOS]

How about sharing a link ???

www.Reforest.com/company

 

[grnTOMATOS]

First off, for those of you who have followed my rants over the years, you know how much I disdain "snake oils" aka "rocket fuels" and the shysters that push them. I do keep an open mind and will take the plunge from time to time but so far I feel I've wasted my money. IOW, if it sounds too good to be true, then it usually is. I consider most of the organic market push to be a big racket based on idealogical fervor and greed. I attended a professional workshop on the use of non-conventional soil additives where such products were applied in field studies with all kinds of crops throughout the U.S. and all products tested (about 10) were found to have no beneficial affect on crop production. Having said that, this raises the question, when can some of these "snake oils" be of benefit to the cannabis gardener? Which brings me to my latest experiment.......

I recently applied 30 gallons of a MycoApply soluble product to alot of plant material, not cannabis, but all the same as I applied it to very similiar plants regarding their botanical makeup, growth habits, etc. I will be able to judge the results by the end of this growing season as a control group was set aside with no treatment.

There are quite a few such products containing either or both endo (hyphae within the roots) and ecto (hyphae on the roots) type species, I chose what is considered the most complete and best product in the industry for broad spectrum use - trees, conifers, grapevines, veggies, roses, potted plants, etc. (Not all fungi species will work under all circumstances.... soil conditions, temps, etc.) This brand is also the cheapest and is regulated. A long conversation with a company tech confirmed that indeed their product is bonafide. Of course an electron microscope would come in handy for a quick and easy check. For about $45 (which included shipping) I am able to make up to 200 gallons of an active soil drench. I used a product called Soluble MaXX which contains:

9 Species Endo (31,200 prop/lb)
11 Species Ecto (1.5 billion prop/lb)
2 Species Trichoderma, a Biostimulant Package and Beneficial Bacteria

The use of this product is best when you're using soil-less potting mixes as mixes rich in compost will likely not see any real world benefit. Now here is the rub - this fungi comes dormant with a carrier and takes time to become active, work up an active colony in the root zone. Is it active by the time you harvest, or a week after application while your plants are in the juvenile stage?

If you wish to experiment with such products it is imperative that you also have a control group and take careful notes, which no one seems to want to do, instead seeing what they want or expect to see. Upon harvest it would be wise to inspect the root system to see if a fungi colony did indeed develop. The grower is still subject to good plant practices so your mileage will vary.

I take the approach that gardening is all about tweaks, the use of bonafide products might be worth experimenting with, then again you might be throwing good money after bad. Hoo nose?

Good luck,
UB

You may be surprised, but mycorrhizae cannot live in a liquid setting without constant aeration (ie air stones). If you bought a liquid that said it was containing "live" mycorrhizae, then you fell for another snake oil scheme.

You may want to look for another product which is soluble but not stored in a liquid form (where it drowns the aerobic fungi spores). Go with granular for highest spore count or soluble powders you mix before applying.
Good luck

 

[Uncle Ben]

You may be surprised, but mycorrhizae cannot live in a liquid setting without constant aeration (ie air stones). If you bought a liquid that said it was containing "live" mycorrhizae, then you fell for another snake oil scheme.

It's a dry powder. You don't think I'd be buying this stuff 30 gallons at a time? Rate for the soluble powder is 1 tsp/gallon or 1 lb. per 200 gallons of water.

BTW, just because someone breaks a world record doesn't mean it was due to any one product or thing. Could have been good care, exceptional genetics, perfect clime, etc.

If you have a decent potting mix, one with some compost, then you don't need to be wasting your time on myco products.

UB