Cash For Clunkers.... Revisited

CrackerJax

New Member
So, bunches of folks all thought cash for Clunkers was a great idea and a huge success. They also said this is how the govt. can PROVE that their multiplier "theory" of funneling tax dollars ca produce gains in the private sector.... a helping hand so to speak.

It's nonsense of course, as all things Keysnian are prone to be once taken from paper and put into the real world.

Read on....................

========================================================

Clunkers in Practice

One of Washington's all-time dumb ideas.



Remember "cash for clunkers," the program that subsidized Americans to the tune of nearly $3 billion to buy a new car and destroy an old one? Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood declared in August that, "This is the one stimulus program that seems to be working better than just about any other program."
If that's true, heaven help the other programs. Last week U.S. automakers reported that new car sales for September, the first month since the clunker program expired, sank by 25% from a year earlier. Sales at GM and Chrysler fell by 45% and 42%, respectively. Ford was down about 5%. Some 700,000 cars were sold in the summer under the program as buyers received up to $4,500 to buy a new car they would probably have purchased anyway, so all the program seems to have done is steal those sales from the future. Exactly as critics predicted. (Cracker being one of them)
Cash for clunkers had two objectives: help the environment by increasing fuel efficiency, and boost car sales to help Detroit and the economy. It achieved neither. According to Hudson Institute economist Irwin Stelzer, at best "the reduction in gasoline consumption will cut our oil consumption by 0.2 percent per year, or less than a single day's gasoline use." Burton Abrams and George Parsons of the University of Delaware added up the total benefits from reduced gas consumption, environmental improvements and the benefit to car buyers and companies, minus the overall cost of cash for clunkers, and found a net cost of roughly $2,000 per vehicle. Rather than stimulating the economy, the program made the nation as a whole $1.4 billion poorer.
The basic fallacy of cash for clunkers is that you can somehow create wealth by destroying existing assets that are still productive, in this case cars that still work. Under the program, auto dealers were required to destroy the car engines of trade-ins with a sodium silicate solution, then smash them and send them to the junk yard. As the journalist Henry Hazlitt wrote in his classic, "Economics in One Lesson," you can't raise living standards by breaking windows so some people can get jobs repairing them.
In the category of all-time dumb ideas, cash for clunkers rivals the New Deal brainstorm to slaughter pigs to raise pork prices. The people who really belong in the junk yard are the wizards in Washington who peddled this economic malarkey.
 

robert 14617

Well-Known Member
the gov. has become this huge flailing multi armed beast who wants into every aspect of our private lives
 

CrackerJax

New Member
OMG.... the grief I got for calling it a charade was immense. There's a thread somewhere on it.

PPl actually think the govt. can stimulate the economy.... :lol: It's always the opposite. :sad:
 

robert 14617

Well-Known Member
i read some where a kid 18 or so said if they would have divvied up all the bail outs and cash for clunk programs up and paid them out to every one 18 and over , the economy would have been stimulated ten times over by now
 

The Warlord

Well-Known Member
If they'd just divvy up the money they're throwing away on bank bailouts and stupid programs like this and give it to us we'd all be rich by now. Our government sucks. Bad.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
If they'd just divvy up the money they're throwing away on bank bailouts and stupid programs like this and give it to us we'd all be rich by now. Our government sucks. Bad.

Okay, first off, that's SOCIALIST, and we don't tolerate that in America. :roll:

Second, it would only amount to about $2,000 per person. Hardly enough to make anyone "rich".

Third, that's less than most people pay in federal taxes every year.
 

The Warlord

Well-Known Member
Okay, first off, that's SOCIALIST, and we don't tolerate that in America. :roll:

Second, it would only amount to about $2,000 per person. Hardly enough to make anyone "rich".

Third, that's less than most people pay in federal taxes every year.
First off, I wasn't serious. Except for the goverment sucks part. I thought that was pretty obvious...

2. Ya it'd be about 2,300 dollars each by my finger and toe calculations. Now If they'd give ME 700 billion dollars i'd stimulate the hell outta the economy. Every stripper in the USA'd have a new caddy and i'd have a huge smile and no money.:twisted:

3. you take life too seriously, me thinks:peace:
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Only a few die hards thought the program was any good.

Cash for Clunkers wasn't about helping the environment OR saving money. It was an attempt to raise automobile sales figures and save the auto makers/dealers from going out of business. I'd say it was pretty successful.
This was due to the unprecedented success of the program. The government is not in the car selling business so something called a “learning curve” has to occur in order for things to run smoothly. Desperately needed to buy inventory, these car dealers had cars in their lots for months and months… they had a big problem with overstock, and a little something called inventory on hand. If you did not know companies need to pay tax on inventory on hand. So their desperation is unwarranted. This wasn’t a food kitchen in the middle of a famine. It was just a lil help to a market that was injured and bleeding.
i didn't just take micro economics, I aced it, and went on to help make it's tests, while still an undergrad.... pulling production forward is a very bold statement to make... pulling production forward happens when demand exceeded your expectations, mainly due to faulty forecasting.... this happens when a company's economy is expanding....

you are just speculating about next year's numbers...

i forgot, you have a crystal ball that can tell you the future....

again, Ford is not doing better because the people know anything about bailout or whatnot.... you truly are mis-informed... ford is doing great because they are offering cars that americans are willing to buy, because Ford's cars actually meet the needs of it's targeted consumer group....

just like blaming GM's poor sales figures on it's lack of cars to sell because production had stopped and no cars were available to sell... gm had to stop production cuz no one had ordered more items cuz no one needed it. dealers were overflowing with inventory....
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Okay, first off, that's SOCIALIST, and we don't tolerate that in America. :roll:

Second, it would only amount to about $2,000 per person. Hardly enough to make anyone "rich".

Third, that's less than most people pay in federal taxes every year.
doob? You need to divide 24 trillion by 330 million, you come up with $72, 730 which is about $70,000 MORE THAN YOU THOUGHT. 72 grand for every man , woman, child , baby, and old person.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
yes, that's where the grief came from...... Red kept yelling that I didn't understand economics.... :mrgreen: O' RLY!!!
 

CrackerJax

New Member
It's always smart to follow failed economics......over and over again.

Give back the stimulus money!!!! Give back the TARP $$$$ !!!!
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
I've always said Obama is woefully uninformed and suffers from an awful case of wishful thinking.

Detroit is recieving 15 million in stimulus funds. God forbid they should do something useful with the money like bulldoze all the abandon homes and buildings and maybe start some urban farms. Instead they just hand it out which is like pissing in the ocean which is exactely what cash for clunkers was. But man Obama was convinced it would rescue the auto industry. That's all this stimulus stuff is, pissing in the ocean.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/21216628/index.html

I can't wait until they do get the money, it's going to be like the Dave Cheppelle reperations skit.
 

PeachOibleBoiblePeach#1

Well-Known Member
Oh well, I just got 4 almost brand new tires and aluminum rims for 20 bucks a piece! In Today's economy I'll take what I can get for cheap. Helped me but I still have my foreign gas guzzler. I trust Japan's technology more than Detroits, unless i was buying a tank.
Does that make me bad,,I don't think so. I work and buy only reliability, The USA needs to come up with some of the same technologies employed in there war machines they create. Japan was left High and dry in building there military after WW2, they came back 10 fold in technology.
Let's see 3-Billion invested, no figures of any valuable returns or losses, That i know of?
I do know the wars have cost 918+Billion since 2001, that's a 114+Billion a year. and we still can't get who we are really after?
Sorry, just 4 new tire and rims for 80 bucks yea!
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Oh, believe me... Al Queda was decimated in Iraq. Total humiliation was handed out with extra helpings. One of the reasons why Afghanistan cannot be abandoned. It's their last sanctuary.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
doob? You need to divide 24 trillion by 330 million, you come up with $72, 730 which is about $70,000 MORE THAN YOU THOUGHT. 72 grand for every man , woman, child , baby, and old person.

Um, no. I was replying to the Warlord who said something like "if they divvied up the money they spent on the bank bailouts and cash for clunkers, we'd all be rich".

The bank bailouts and cash for clunkers budget does NOT amount to 24 trillion dollars. Not by a longshot.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Um, no. I was replying to the Warlord who said something like "if they divvied up the money they spent on the bank bailouts and cash for clunkers, we'd all be rich".

The bank bailouts and cash for clunkers budget does NOT amount to 24 trillion dollars. Not by a longshot.
Look here Doob, it comes to a total of 24 trillion. You think that the only bailout was TARP?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/02/04/business/20090205-bailout-totals-graphic.html

Add up the left and right hand sides...24 trillion in all for the whole kit and kaboodle

Edit: just added again, oops my mistake, about 22.1 trillion, which is pretty close, much closer than a long shot. And I suppose if your talking just about TARP +Cash4Clunkrs then its 703 billion only, hardly enough to buy a happy meal your right. $2130 per person
 
Top