Chemical Trails????

[natrone23]

I saw on the news one time years ago, an airliner dumped its "dump" on a house, although I think it was a accident because there supposed to wait to they land to off load the shit.......but anyways it was like contained in this huge bag (piss, water, shit ect) it landed on these peoples house, it put a huge hole the roof and splattered all over their living room

 

[medicineman]

I saw on the news one time years ago, an airliner dumped its "dump" on a house, although I think it was a accident because there supposed to wait to they land to off load the shit.......but anyways it was like contained in this huge bag (piss, water, shit ect) it landed on these peoples house, it put a huge hole the roof and splattered all over their living room

Yeah, the blue water blues.

 

[medicineman]

Do you have any evidence to back this up? I know Groom Lake is no-fly, but just because Nellis is 'restricted' does not make it no-fly. It merely means that clearance is required from Nellis control before entering DESERT MOA to the east and northeast and the REVEILLE MOA to the north, exluding 1500 AGL and below.

I've liven in Vegas for 45+ years and this area has always been a no fly zone as far as I know, It is also groom lake and the Nevada test range area. Have you ever heard of operation red flag? That's a military operation where they bring fighter pilots from all over the world and have mock battles in this airspace. This airspace encompasses about 1/4 of the total nevada air space. Commercial planes have been re-routed around this space for years. If you accidently get into this space in a private plane, you will see a couple of F-16/18/22s or whatever is flying that day show up on your wing tip motioning you to follow them to Indian springs to land, I've not heard of any actually being shot down, but again, if one was, I doubt you'd ever hear about it. It would just be another lost plane. There is actually a video of this happening (being forced down by an F-16). I don't know how they got it out, but it showed up on TV.

 

[mindphuk]

I've liven in Vegas for 45+ years and this area has always been a no fly zone as far as I know, It is also groom lake and the Nevada test range area. Have you ever heard of operation red flag? That's a military operation where they bring fighter pilots from all over the world and have mock battles in this airspace. This airspace encompasses about 1/4 of the total nevada air space. Commercial planes have been re-routed around this space for years. If you accidently get into this space in a private plane, you will see a couple of F-16/18/22s or whatever is flying that day show up on your wing tip motioning you to follow them to Indian springs to land, I've not heard of any actually being shot down, but again, if one was, I doubt you'd ever hear about it. It would just be another lost plane. There is actually a video of this happening (being forced down by an F-16). I don't know how they got it out, but it showed up on TV.

Sure, if you are in a private plane, and you stray into restricted airspace ANYWHERE, not just Nellis, you can expect to get radio and/or escort to lead you out. You have to remember, most private planes are flying VFR and they have a much higher chance of running into restricted airspace. Commercial jets, above 18000ft must be using IFR.
As to your claim that commercial planes have been rerouted for years, you haven't clarified around what? The Groom Lake prohibited airspace isn't as big as the Nellis restricted airspace (you should also learn the difference between restricted, controlled and prohibited airspace), which flights ARE allowed, if they have filed the appropriate flight plan and are in contact with Nellis Control before entering.
Just talk to some commercial pilots, or better yet, just look up individual flights or use flightaware.com and check out US commercial flight maps.
In this map, that little box marked 51 is the only truely restricted area. Also, being on the ground, it is impossible to distinguish between a plane flying 20Kft and one flying 30k ft, yet if those planes where flying the exact same flight path, the lower altitide contrail will appear to be farther north than the higher one due to parallax.
IOW, at that elevation, I have a hard time believing you are able to tell exactly what they are flying over.

 

[BCtrippin]

a}when planes change ALTITUDE, they go in and out of layers of atmosphere- hence th on and off. b} commercial planes behave exactly the same as far as vapor trails go...hell even the b-17's and b29's did it! the b-29's actually discovered the jet stream(for the u.s.), when they found themselves flying BACKWARD over tokyo! crazy atmosphere! and remember- 'majic' just means you don't know how it works!

....I fly small planes.....I think I would notice a large altitude change.


Im not talking about planes ascending or descending when the trails appear or disappear.

The jets will be flying a steady path, at altitude, be flying along, lay down a trail, then keep flying along the same alt.


Like I said many times in this thread, no one is denying Vapor Trails. Everyone has seen them. Its the differences that makes me wonder.



.....as far as "magic" I dont think anyone thinks this is magic, not me anyway. I don't know how a lot of things work and that doesnt mean I think that they are "magic" It just means I havent taken the time to learn and understand how it works for myself.

 

[mindphuk]

....I fly small planes.....I think I would notice a large altitude change.


Im not talking about planes ascending or descending when the trails appear or disappear.

The jets will be flying a steady path, at altitude, be flying along, lay down a trail, then keep flying along the same alt.

You're claiming you can tell, from the ground, if an airplane at 25K ft is climbing to 27K ft?
This doesn't even take into account air currents, humidity changes and thermoclines that occur through the flight path that will also affect the presence of contrails. Just talk to any military pilot and they will tell you that how they will have to adjust altitudes slightly to avoid the contrails that might give away their position as they approach enemy territory.

 

[medicineman]

Sure, if you are in a private plane, and you stray into restricted airspace ANYWHERE, not just Nellis, you can expect to get radio and/or escort to lead you out. You have to remember, most private planes are flying VFR and they have a much higher chance of running into restricted airspace. Commercial jets, above 18000ft must be using IFR.
As to your claim that commercial planes have been rerouted for years, you haven't clarified around what? The Groom Lake prohibited airspace isn't as big as the Nellis restricted airspace (you should also learn the difference between restricted, controlled and prohibited airspace), which flights ARE allowed, if they have filed the appropriate flight plan and are in contact with Nellis Control before entering.
Just talk to some commercial pilots, or better yet, just look up individual flights or use flightaware.com and check out US commercial flight maps.
In this map, that little box marked 51 is the only truely restricted area. Also, being on the ground, it is impossible to distinguish between a plane flying 20Kft and one flying 30k ft, yet if those planes where flying the exact same flight path, the lower altitide contrail will appear to be farther north than the higher one due to parallax.
IOW, at that elevation, I have a hard time believing you are able to tell exactly what they are flying over.

I'm not a pilot, but heck, after living here for 45+ years and watching the skies occasionally, One would thing I'd have a pretty good idea of which way the planes fly overhead. Hey maybe they do fly in from the northwest and I just dont see them, except the ones that leave "Chemtrails" that leave a trail that lasts for hours. and then they make a grid, like why would they do that??? Anyway, I could care less if you don't believe. just take a large drink of the government coolaid and inhale deeply. I'll continue on with my conspiracy ways.

http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=chemtrails&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=5&ct=title

 

[BCtrippin]

You're claiming you can tell, from the ground, if an airplane at 25K ft is climbing to 27K ft?
This doesn't even take into account air currents, humidity changes and thermoclines that occur through the flight path that will also affect the presence of contrails. Just talk to any military pilot and they will tell you that how they will have to adjust altitudes slightly to avoid the contrails that might give away their position as they approach enemy territory.

25k to 27k would not cause trails to appear and disappear.... Adjusting altitudes is something you constantly do to avoid certain air currents.

Here is a real vapor trail. Notice how thin it is. You can already see it start to fade away. Real vapor react a lot different and dont form long strait, thick lines of smoke. If they are drawn out over a long line they disappear within Minutes......Not Hours.

 

[mindphuk]

25k to 27k would not cause trails to appear and disappear.... Adjusting altitudes is something you constantly do to avoid certain air currents.

Here is a real vapor trail. Notice how thin it is. You can already see it start to fade away. Real vapor react a lot different and dont form long strait, thick lines of smoke. If they are drawn out over a long line they disappear within Minutes......Not Hours.

Do you have evidence to support your claim that the temperature and humidity is always going to be identical at various altitudes? Because that's what would be necessary in order to produce contrails at the various elevations.

See, I can post pictures too:

 

[BCtrippin]

Do you have evidence to support your claim that the temperature and humidity is always going to be identical at various altitudes? Because that's what would be necessary in order to produce contrails at the various elevations.

See, I can post pictures too:

What claim?

Where did I say temp and humidity will be the same at various altitudes?



Yeah, you can post pics of vapor trails, Even though I just did.... The vapor trails dont sit in the sky for hours. Like I said no one is denying vapor trails. Im talking about the differences between vapor trails and 'chem' trails. I dont know why you bother posting info that has already been posted.


If the changes were that rapid there would not be long drawn out trails lasting for hours and hours. Especially if it was only a few thousand feet difference. The reason you see those vapor trails from the airliners is because they are ascending or descending just before or after takeoff. And the other jets are all turning or rapidly descending or ascending.

The jet in the first post is flying at a steady altitude, then a vapor trail just starts coming out, then turns off, the whole time the jet has no rapid altitude changes and no rapid change of direction.

 

[mindphuk]

This is an excerpt from the 1944 film “The Memphis Belle: A Story of a Flying Fortress”. The full original film is public domain, and can be found here:
http://www.archive.org/details/TheMem…
The film shows contrail formation, including showing “broken” contrails.


[youtube]v/wfOrez6q7WM&hl=en&fs=1[/youtube]

Listen to the audio, as it explains how high the planes are, how cold it is, and how the contrails are formed

 

[s.c.mtn.hillbilly]

....I fly small planes.....I think I would notice a large altitude change.


Im not talking about planes ascending or descending when the trails appear or disappear.

The jets will be flying a steady path, at altitude, be flying along, lay down a trail, then keep flying along the same alt.


Like I said many times in this thread, no one is denying Vapor Trails. Everyone has seen them. Its the differences that makes me wonder.



.....as far as "magic" I dont think anyone thinks this is magic, not me anyway. I don't know how a lot of things work and that doesnt mean I think that they are "magic" It just means I havent taken the time to learn and understand how it works for myself.

I was using magic as an analogy...one time we were at the hippie resevation in taos, ans saw a car 'jump' about 5 miles away at night..my girlfriend wouldn't listen when I tried to explain thermal currents....to her, it jumped. or how probably 1/6 of ufo's are really geomagnetic earthlights.(the one I saw in llano quemado was not an earthlight!).

 

[mindphuk]

What claim?

Where did I say temp and humidity will be the same at various altitudes?

You claimed a change in altitude wouldn't affect the appearance of contrails, but they are directly affected by temperature and humidity, the implication of your statement is that those factors would be constant at various altitudes. If I misunderstood, please clarify.

Is it also your claim that cirrus clouds should dissipate just as rapidly as "real" contrails? A contrail is just a cloud. Why are some naturally formed clouds persistent and others dissipate quickly?

When jet fuel combusts, it forms water as a byproduct. Tiny droplets shoot out in a blast of hot air as the plane soars along. So do minute particles of oxidized sulfur and nitrogen. What else? Impurities or additives, in minute quantities. Metal particles, soot, that sort of thing. These “minims” give the water vapor already in the air something to cling to. Just as important, though, is the condition of the air through which the jet flies—namely, its temperature and humidity. Contrails don’t always appear behind the jets. In fact, they usually don’t. They form about a third of the time, on average.
Humidity and temperature: The forces that create a contrail are quite similar to the forces that make your breath visible on a cold, damp day.
Shoot a plume of hot air laden with tiny particles into the upper atmosphere, where the temperature is, say, sixty below zero and the humidity is somewhat high. The air is suddenly unable to hold its water. Vapor condenses and clings to the matter in the jet’s plume. The air soon mixes and cools and the particles of water freeze. A contrail is born.


What happens next also depends on atmospheric conditions. If the air is just barely humid enough and cold enough to allow water vapor to condense, a contrail appears but doesn’t stick around. Those are the ones you call 'real' contrails, disappearing almost as quickly as it appears.

If the air is sufficiently frigid and humid, a contrail forms easily, stretching out over the sky, coaxing tiny ice crystals out of the atmosphere. Chances are on days like these (especially if you live under a busy flight path) the sky will be marred with the lines of contrails, roughly parallel, varying in density and width. On days like these, a contrail can persist long after the jet has passed. The contrail splays out and takes the appearance of a naturally formed cirrus (or cirrocumulus) cloud.


Broken contrails are explained in exactly the same way. The amount of water in the exhaust is pretty constant, but the amount of moisture in the air is not. As I mentioned, the humidity varies with altitude, and a layer of low humidity can be sandwiched between two layers of high humidity. As a plane climbs or descends through this layer, then the trail will only form in the areas of high humidity, and so look like it was “switched off” in the area of low humidity.
You can get the same effect with temperature. A warm layer of air can actually lay on top of a colder layer in what is called an “inversion” (you’ll hear this on the weather sometimes, referred to as an “inversion layer”). When a plane flies through this inversion layer, the trail can be “broken”.

 

[medicineman]

This is an excerpt from the 1944 film “The Memphis Belle: A Story of a Flying Fortress”. The full original film is public domain, and can be found here:
http://www.archive.org/details/TheMem…
The film shows contrail formation, including showing “broken” contrails.


[youtube]v/wfOrez6q7WM&hl=en&fs=1[/youtube]

Listen to the audio, as it explains how high the planes are, how cold it is, and how the contrails are formed

Just in case you didn't notice, those were piston engine planes not jets.

 

[BCtrippin]

You claimed a change in altitude wouldn't affect the appearance of contrails, but they are directly affected by temperature and humidity, the implication of your statement is that those factors would be constant at various altitudes. If I misunderstood, please clarify.

Is it also your claim that cirrus clouds should dissipate just as rapidly as "real" contrails? A contrail is just a cloud. Why are some naturally formed clouds persistent and others dissipate quickly?

I did Not say a change in altitude would have no affect. I said a small change of a couple thousand feet would not have a noticeable difference. It COULD but it would NOT be a steady, thick line. It wouldnt be nearly as thick or clear and there would be a lot more breaks in the vapor trail.


Yes, Vapor trails are Just Clouds. My point Exactly. Why do these "vapor clouds" sit in the sky for hours and hours when normal clouds are nowhere to be seen?

On a bright, clear, sunny day, a cloud, or a vapor cloud, should Not be able to sit in the atmosphere for that amount of time.

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

I did Not say a change in altitude would have no affect. I said a small change of a couple thousand feet would not have a noticeable difference. It COULD but it would NOT be a steady, thick line. It wouldnt be nearly as thick or clear and there would be a lot more breaks in the vapor trail.


Yes, Vapor trails are Just Clouds. My point Exactly. Why do these "vapor clouds" sit in the sky for hours and hours when normal clouds are nowhere to be seen?

On a bright, clear, sunny day, a cloud, or a vapor cloud, should Not be able to sit in the atmosphere for that amount of time.

Do you even know what atmospheric conditions are like above 10,000 feet, or are you just talking out of your ass for the sake of giving yourself something to do?

 

[BCtrippin]

Do you even know what atmospheric conditions are like above 10,000 feet, or are you just talking out of your ass for the sake of giving yourself something to do?

Im no meteorologist, but I know they are not constant...... It depends on the location, and current weather conditions...


Do you have any idea what your talking about or do you just post random useless comments?

 

[mindphuk]

Just in case you didn't notice, those were piston engine planes not jets.

And your point is?
Did you skip over the explanation of what is creating the contrails? The physics are identical regardless of the type of engine.
Heat and water vapor is produced by the combustion of fuel in jet, piston, as well as liquid and solid rocket fueled engines. In fact, the more efficient the engine is, the more water vapor is produced. Turbine engines have been becoming more and more efficient with advances in technology, so the amount of water vapor produced by modern aircraft is actually more than those older style piston engines.
Have you ever seen a space shuttle launch? Depending on the conditions, those contrails can last for hours as well and spread just like persistent "chemtrails".
Here's a remnant of a persistent vapor trail from the Space Shuttle Atlantis.

Another (not sure which shuttle mission this was):

Can you answer the question why some naturally formed clouds linger and others dissipate quickly? Since a contrail is merely a cloud of ice particles, it stands to reason that depending on the conditions in the troposphere, that some will persist while others vanish quickly.

Here's a nice view from aboard a 747-451 over Alaska. This photo was taken from an ordinary citizen. The aircraft above is Northwest B747-400 turning right to join the photographer's air route. The one below is a Singapore Airlines B777 on the same route.

Med,
Believe it or not, I'm in full agreement with you when it comes to not trusting what people in the government tell us. There is no doubt in my mind that there is and have been clandestine operations going on, some of which may have been directed against civilians without their consent. My problem with this is that the science doesn't support the claim. Being in the field of science myself, I find these meritless claims very disturbing. The quality of science education in this country is already dismal enough without perpetuating this kind of pseudoscience as fact.

If chemtrails exist, fine, show me some real evidence, not just conjecture and speculation. Let's get some samples and analyze them. The means to do actual scientific inquiry into this phenomena is not out of our reach. I'm sure with the number of 'chemtrail' advocates out there, a group could pool resources and use high altitude weather balloons or charter an airplane to go up and take air samples. Is the commercial aviation industry in on the conspiracy? If not, what type of plane produces chemtrails? Why don't we see pictures of these special aircraft. It's not like high powered telephoto lenses aren't available. Why haven't any general aviation pilots reported anything unusual?

I also have yet to hear any reasonable explanation as to what the purpose and the composition of these chemtrails are. After 40+ years of these things, shouldn't we (or the chemtrail producers) have seen an effect by now? Also, if it is a clandestine operation, why make them so visible and at such high altitude? Any chemical dispersed that high up has a very low chance of reaching the ground. If Skunkworks can design stealth aircraft that eliminates real contrails, don't you think these black ops folks would use the same tech to hide their chemtrails?
You can believe I am drinking the government Kool-Aid if you want, but I would have to disregard too much logic and science for me to believe in chemtrails.

 

[Silky Shagsalot]

oh my gosh, another stupid "they're poisoning us" thread. con-trails, prop wash, what have you, it's nothing that is "being done" to us. you wanna worry about something? worry about global warming.

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

Im no meteorologist, but I know they are not constant...... It depends on the location, and current weather conditions...


Do you have any idea what your talking about or do you just post random useless comments?

They change rather drastically, and I've already posted enough comments to the contrary of your rather ridiculous conspiracy theories.

If the government wanted to add anything to the environment to effect people they have control of the water supply. Some federal regulation could easily be passed (hidden amidst all the pork) along with a totally unrelated bill.

Or they could do what they typically do and give it a totally innocent name that really explains the exact opposite of what it is going to accomplish. Consumers Right to Privacy Act, Telephone Security Act, Homeland Defense Act, Patriot Act, Etc.

Besides, if I really wanted to, I'd spend the time to go through this post, and point out that there have been plenty of responses to your question regarding contrails. There's been explanations as to what causes them, and why the can readily disperse or randomly appear to remain in the air for long periods of time.

Contrails or vapour trails are visible trails of condensed water vapour made by the exhaust of aircraft engines. As the hot exhaust gases cool in the surrounding air they may precipitate a cloud of microscopic water droplets. If the air is cold enough, this trail will comprise tiny ice crystals.
The wingtip vortices which trail from the wingtips and wing flaps of aircraft are sometimes partly visible due to condensation in the cores of the vortices. Each vortex is a mass of spinning air and the air pressure at the centre of the vortex is very low. These wingtip vortices are unrelated to the exhaust from the engines. They are sometimes known as vapour trails.

Though adding to the discussion, there's also factors such as vertical and horizontal windsheer, which will effect the dissipation, and shape of the contrails or vapor trails.

Add onto that, that the contrails usually appear behind the plane's engine, where there is water vapor in higher than normal atmospheric conditions, and around the vortices caused by the wings of the craft. The cause for the trails behind the engines is self-explanatory. ( CH4 + 2 O2 = CO2 + 2 H2O ) That is water vapor is released as a by-product of combustion and due to lower temperatures it is less likely to disperse readily, instead freezing.

For the wings, you have a low pressure area created by the wing itself, which can potentially lead to any water vapor in the low pressure area condensing behind the wing, and creating a vapor trail/contrail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troposphere

Personally, I got hooked up on the entire vapor trail/contrail theory for a while, before deciding on my own that it was a conspiracy theory.

Besides, ultimately what this fails to address is why there are thin whispy clouds that can stretch for miles in width and height. These clouds (I believe they are actually cirrus clouds, but I'm not sure) are fairly common, and appear at random.

As far as contrails that grow wider (disperse). That's typically what higher concentrations of a gas or liquid do when mixed with lower concentrations of a gas or a liquid. They disperse to attain a uniform consistency, but such a dispersion does take time, and for a while there is going to be a higher concentration near the initial focus of whatever is being dispersed.