QB96 Elite V2 w/ SSTX heatsink question

[Or_Gro]

I think you posted this already but can’t remember. Did the extra red on the 96s show much of a difference? Nice work too! Need you to come my way and test my lights for me

Yes!

You know what i’m running right now. All my spectrum postings yesterday were about getting these lights to match those.

To get similar spectrum with emerson effect and initiator effect.

current grow: qb288s plus qb35 plus far red bar

These: qb96 plus far red bar

Spectrumwise, a 96 is like two 288s plus a 35.
Ppfdwise, a 96 is like 1-1.5 288s
Pricewise: 96 is a much,much better $ value for same intensity, especially aftet upgrading 288s to same red-supplemented spectrum.

 

[Or_Gro]

Nope just stop crying or leave it's simple

Eff you dootch bag!

 

[Or_Gro]

4 in a 3x3....

That too, at 160w or 200w

Or see below @ 120w

 

[Or_Gro]

Another set of sweetspots (at specified heights) using five 96s with individual drivers (at specified wattages):



If you run a 5x5, you essentially have another 6” strip added on each side of the tent, the 160w @18” table would probably be at least 600ppfd (flowering range) on that 6” wide perimeter; 200w would be somewhat higher perimeter ppfd than that.

Hopefully get to 6 lights tomorrow; which, based on previous work should give another great 120w sweetspot, in a 4x4.

 

[Or_Gro]

4 rapidled pucks are $148 btw

$180 is based on full kit ($45 per puck) each one with lense and driver.

 

[WeedSexWeightsShakes]

$180 is based on full kit ($45 per puck) each one with lense and driver.

I don’t think they offered the lense when I bought mine. Oh well I would think they still are helping somewhat lol. I should try having them on longer next grow maybe. Think I only have them on for 10 total minutes.

 

[Or_Gro]

I don’t think they offered the lense when I bought mine. Oh well I would think they still are helping somewhat lol. I should try having them on longer next grow maybe. Think I only have them on for 10 total minutes.

Imo, but just gut feeling, the far red adds more thru emerson effect (red,deep red, far red for full lightson) than thru initiator effect (2-15 mins at begin lightsoff). But if you have fr, might as well also do initiator.

What do you think @Randomblame ?

 

[Randomblame]

So the 40-45 is ppf not ppfd, correct?

What is the sq meters this is over? In other words, what is the ppfd?

What do you think, for cannabis, is the minimum far red ppfd for emerson (assuming 2:2:1 ratio r:dr:fr)? For initiator?

As for time length of eod initiator treatment on stretch, i run that far red bar for full 15 min at beginning of lightsout, since end of stretch. No apparent stretch at all, expect it would be different before stretch.

To make a final recommendation for C. I need more far-red experience.
I've just a bit over 9sft; 0,875m² to be exact (125x 70cm or 50x 28", height is 165cm or 66") so ppfd is ~50μMol/s -20% wall/driver loss = ~40μMol/s/m².
I have now 185w CRI80 and 105w CRI90 and calculate the far-red part with only 6% or 6,3w. With only 50% efficiency (COBs run at 450mA) this would be ~3,15PAR/w or ~19μMol/s PPF. I've just rounded up to 20...
Its probably more than 6%(700-780nm) cuz COB efficiency is more like 53%. With the 20μMol/s far-red trigger it sould be at least 40μMol/s/m² PPFD incl driver and wall loss. And the 185w CRI80 adds another 3% far-red to the spectrum.

I can not recommend a specific value for cannabis. Last run I've used maybe 20-25μMol/s/m² because of the defective driver and I got the impression that they loved it and want even more.
This time I have 40-50μmol/s/m² depending on the distance and I'm pretty sure they'll like it even more. When I look at the sun spectrum, summer day, clear sky the red to far-red ratio is 55:45 (5700°k). For me that means plants can handle a lot more far-red when the main light is on and it should not cause much more stretch.

Only when the ratio changes to a far-red dominant spectrum with 40: 60 or 30:70 ratio red : far-red the plants would "think" they grow in the shade. SAS or shade avoidance syndrome is triggered and In this case you would see a lot more stretch as long as they don't stopped growing vertically.
Is the stretch finally done and they get still too much far-red you would get less dense buds(like from HPS), less branching, much bigger but fewer leaves and less yield.
So from my point of view the additional stretch depends mostly on the deep-to far-red ratio and as long as the plants get more deep- than far-red one should no see much additional stretch. In the pdf mentioned above they used 800-1000μMol/s PPFD and up to 90μMol/s were in far-red. So roughly 10% of the total output.
When I should make a recommandation, I would say start with 5% far-red and when you think it could be still more add another few % and see if you still like the results.

 

[Randomblame]

Imo, but just gut feeling, the far red adds more thru emerson effect (red,deep red, far red for full lightson) than thru initiator effect (2-15 mins at begin lightsoff). But if you have fr, might as well also do initiator.

What do you think @Randomblame ?

Yeah, bro! Simply run it over the day for beneficial far-red effects and leave it on a few minutes longer for EoD treatment. For instance mainlight 12/12h, far-red 12.15/11.45h.
More red and deep-red would increase the emerson effect even more but only up to a certain point.
With only 500μMol/s ppfd the emerson effect would be pretty strong and with 1500μMol/s there would be almost no measurable effect cuz the PS is already running near the upper limit.
500μMol/s white + 200μMol/s red/deep-/far-red would be only 700μMol/s but the results should be comparable to 750 maybe 800μMol/s white only.
We need many more tests under real world conditions to confirm the laboratory results and their conclusions.
What works in theory does not always have to work under real conditions.

One need around 2000-4000μMol of far-red to put the plants into sleep mode. The more you use the more stretch will occur. For this reason I start EoD treatment with 2000μMol and double that when the stretch is done. But it depends also on how stretchy the strain is. For compact indikas I would use 4000 from the beginning.

 

[Randomblame]

If we use the 12μMol/s ppfd reading from the spectromaster for one puk and you have 4 of them in a 4x 4' area for 15 minutes that would be 4x 12=48μMol/s x 900sec or 15minutes that would be 43.200μMol. Thats much more than needed!
2 minutes would be already enough but it needs even more than that to realy get unwanted, unnatural stretch.

I would simply measure the far-red intensity(with mainlight off) at canopy level and set the timer accordingly to get the desired amount of far-red. More will not hurt up to a certain point but the plant respond is also a bit different from strain to strain.

 

[Or_Gro]

If we use the 12μMol/s ppfd reading from the spectromaster for one puk and you have 4 of them in a 4x 4' area for 15 minutes that would be 4x 12=48μMol/s x 900sec or 15minutes that would be 43.200μMol. Thats much more than needed!
2 minutes would be already enough but it needs even more than that to realy get unwanted, unnatural stretch.

I would simply measure the far-red intensity(with mainlight off) at canopy level and set the timer accordingly to get the desired amount of far-red. More will not hurt up to a certain point but the plant respond is also a bit different from strain to strain.

The trick is factoring in the spread.

That 12 umol/sec is only directly under the light, 12-18 inches away it drops off dramatically, as can be implied by the spectra above. Whereas, the bar which is only 4 umol/sec directly under the light is spread evenly across the canopy.

So, it is important to factor in the intensity spread, rather than simply taking the peak spot intensity.

But, with the target intensity (2000-4000 umol) you provided, a thoughtful grower can dial in their exposure time, if they can approximate (by measuring) average intensity spread.

For example, @4umol/sec spread, you’d need (2000/4/60= 8.3 mins to 4000/4/60=16.7 mins) of far red for lightsoff initiator effect).

Finally, while it is a no-brainer to simply leave far red on for a few mins during lightsoff after using it all day w/ red & deep red for emerson effect, you didn’t answer my question re: what is your opinion on relative contribution of emerson vs initiator effects? Thanks.

 

[Or_Gro]

To make a final recommendation for C. I need more far-red experience.
I've just a bit over 9sft; 0,875m² to be exact (125x 70cm or 50x 28", height is 165cm or 66") so ppfd is ~50μMol/s -20% wall/driver loss = ~40μMol/s/m².
I have now 185w CRI80 and 105w CRI90 and calculate the far-red part with only 6% or 6,3w. With only 50% efficiency (COBs run at 450mA) this would be ~3,15PAR/w or ~19μMol/s PPF. I've just rounded up to 20...
Its probably more than 6%(700-780nm) cuz COB efficiency is more like 53%. With the 20μMol/s far-red trigger it sould be at least 40μMol/s/m² PPFD incl driver and wall loss. And the 185w CRI80 adds another 3% far-red to the spectrum.

I can not recommend a specific value for cannabis. Last run I've used maybe 20-25μMol/s/m² because of the defective driver and I got the impression that they loved it and want even more.
This time I have 40-50μmol/s/m² depending on the distance and I'm pretty sure they'll like it even more. When I look at the sun spectrum, summer day, clear sky the red to far-red ratio is 55:45 (5700°k). For me that means plants can handle a lot more far-red when the main light is on and it should not cause much more stretch.

Only when the ratio changes to a far-red dominant spectrum with 40: 60 or 30:70 ratio red : far-red the plants would "think" they grow in the shade. SAS or shade avoidance syndrome is triggered and In this case you would see a lot more stretch as long as they don't stopped growing vertically.
Is the stretch finally done and they get still too much far-red you would get less dense buds(like from HPS), less branching, much bigger but fewer leaves and less yield.
So from my point of view the additional stretch depends mostly on the deep-to far-red ratio and as long as the plants get more deep- than far-red one should no see much additional stretch. In the pdf mentioned above they used 800-1000μMol/s PPFD and up to 90μMol/s were in far-red. So roughly 10% of the total output.
When I should make a recommandation, I would say start with 5% far-red and when you think it could be still more add another few % and see if you still like the results.

Excellent discussion RB! Like i told you earlier, you need to write a book on hort lighting...

 

[Or_Gro]

I don’t think they offered the lense when I bought mine. Oh well I would think they still are helping somewhat lol. I should try having them on longer next grow maybe. Think I only have them on for 10 total minutes.

Based on @Randomblame ’s lightsout far red target info (2000-4000) and my spread readings, 10 mins is probably good (maybe even on the high side) but likely only for the 4 to 8 sqft area under the 4 pucks. You have a 4x8 =32 sqft, so the issue is spread/number of pucks not exposure time.

Notice a difference between plants directly under pucks vs those 2-3 feet away?

 

[KonopCh]

Can anyone give me some numbers about FR... I have 4x4 tent, 5 XPE diodes on 500 mA driver. So around 5W I think (2.1V x 0.5A). Each diode cover 2x2 and one is in the center. I will run them for Emerson and for EOD with Samsung 3000K Q strips.

 

[Or_Gro]

Can anyone give me some numbers about FR... I have 4x4 tent, 5 XPE diodes on 500 mA driver. So around 5W I think (2.1V x 0.5A). Each diode cover 2x2 and one is in the center. I will run them for Emerson and for EOD with Samsung 3000K Q strips.

@Randomblame can probably give you some good info.

But if you know the umol/sec of the diodes or are able to measure your far red lights you can use methodology above to calc big enuff fr peak for initiator effect.

And, if you had same info for deep red (white lights plus supplemental, as described above), you could determine the “optimal” deep:far red ratio, and then adjust either one/both to get emerson effect.

 

[WeedSexWeightsShakes]

Based on @Randomblame ’s lightsout far red target info (2000-4000) and my spread readings, 10 mins is probably good (maybe even on the high side) but likely only for the 4 to 8 sqft area under the 4 pucks. You have a 4x8 =32 sqft, so the issue is spread/number of pucks not exposure time.

Notice a difference between plants directly under pucks vs those 2-3 feet away?

Had too many strains to tell the difference this grow. Next grow I’ll have only 2 strains in the 4x8 so I’ll have a better idea.

 

[Or_Gro]

you would get less dense buds(like from HPS)

Those 3 posts above have so f’ing much info...just amazing!

So, re: quote: i have been wondering if deep red (~660nm) may be driver of bud density diffs, white led vs hps.

The 660 peak in the 96 is the main red end difference vs the 288....

So, without any additional supplementation in either light, 96 may be improvement in bud development over 288...i’ll be supplementing both to similar spectra for my early 2019 extreme side-by-side smackdown grow, can’t wait...

 

[Or_Gro]

Had too many strains to tell the difference this grow. Next grow I’ll have only 2 strains in the 4x8 so I’ll have a better idea.

I don’t know about too many strains, i love seeing the differences under your obvious great care.

 

[KonopCh]

@Randomblame can probably give you some good info.

But if you know the umol/sec of the diodes or are able to measure your far red lights you can use methodology above to calc big enuff fr peak for initiator effect.

And, if you had same info for deep red (white lights plus supplemental, as described above), you could determine the “optimal” deep:far red ratio, and then adjust either one/both to get emerson effect.

And what is optimal ratio?
I have 500W of Q strips driven at 525 mA (183 lm/W) in 3000K, 6x 660nm Cree's at the same current (x2 lights, so whole tent gets 12x 660nm Cree's at 525 mA) and 5x FR as mentioned above.

 

[Or_Gro]

And what is optimal ratio?
I have 500W of Q strips driven at 525 mA (183 lm/W) in 3000K, 6x 660nm Cree's at the same current (x2 lights, so whole tent gets 12x 660nm Cree's at 525 mA) and 5x FR as mentioned above.

If the primary spectral peak is red, and in great excess vs deep and far red, then as @Randomblame states, the minimum ratio of deep:far red is when deep red exceeds far red, so 51:49 would be the start of optimal range....then boost deep red and far red to point where amount of far red starts stretching plants...