Phenos from phenos?

[Stankiefrankie]

Hey everyone! I am trying to figure out some info on genetics and phenotypes. Lets say you have a phenotype of OG kush. Say, King Louie XIII for example. If King Louie self pollinated by hermaphritic expression, would the resulting seeds be similar to the phenotype King Louie...or would you be thrown back into OG Kush phenotypes? Could one possibly find Ghost OG, Fire OG or other known OG phenos. Would it be possible to find a new pheno? How do you know if you have found a new pheno?

Thanks for reading and all of the great information I have learned from these forums! Much Respect!
Stankie Frankie

 

[Miyagismokes]

Hey everyone! I am trying to figure out some info on genetics and phenotypes. Lets say you have a phenotype of OG kush. Say, King Louie XIII for example. If King Louie self pollinated by hermaphritic expression, would the resulting seeds be similar to the phenotype King Louie...or would you be thrown back into OG Kush phenotypes? Could one possibly find Ghost OG, Fire OG or other known OG phenos. Would it be possible to find a new pheno? How do you know if you have found a new pheno?

Thanks for reading and all of the great information I have learned from these forums! Much Respect!
Stankie Frankie

....so I think a hermie is effectively backcrossing itself(not really, but close enough), so you should have stable pheno presentation.

 

[Stankiefrankie]

....so I think a hermie is effectively backcrossing itself(not really, but close enough), so you should have stable pheno presentation.

Thanks for the reply! Appreciate it!

 

[Tim1987]

Hey Frankie

I have to be honest. Never use the seeds from a self pollinated plant. Worst thing you can do.
Worst thing i ever did, keeping mine. Big PITA.
You won't get feminized seeds. Thats BS.
You'll get hermaphrodites. Extremely often.

Dont believe the stories you hear from people about using hermaphrodite seeds, and getting all females.
It isnt how they make feminized seeds at all.......

Sorry man.
If you have a choice to use different seeds. Then i definitely would.

 

[Miyagismokes]

Hey Frankie

I have to be honest. Never use the seeds from a self pollinated plant. Worst thing you can do.
Worst thing i ever did, keeping mine. Big PITA.
You won't get feminized seeds. Thats BS.
You'll get hermaphrodites. Extremely often.

Dont believe the stories you hear from people about using hermaphrodite seeds, and getting all females.
It isnt how they make feminized seeds at all.......

Sorry man.
If you have a choice to use different seeds. Then i definitely would.

I have a few seedlings from a potentially hermed mother (can't figure out any other way it got seeded), and I stress every day about them growing balls...
But you know how it is, empty pots cry to be filled.

 

[Jim_lahey_420]

Hey Frankie

I have to be honest. Never use the seeds from a self pollinated plant. Worst thing you can do.
Worst thing i ever did, keeping mine. Big PITA.
You won't get feminized seeds. Thats BS.
You'll get hermaphrodites. Extremely often.

Dont believe the stories you hear from people about using hermaphrodite seeds, and getting all females.
It isnt how they make feminized seeds at all.......

Sorry man.
If you have a choice to use different seeds. Then i definitely would.

How are feminized seeds made then? Ive read that thats actually the only way to get feminized seeds. Commercially they spray them with something that causes them to herm all at once.

 

[Stankiefrankie]

Thanks guys for your input. Much appreciated! I’m definitely weary of running Hermie seeds and not looking to find fem seeds. I just grew my first time all from bagseed. One out of six plants was heavily seeded and one other was lightly seeded. I had two OGs turn out amazing (no seeds) but really different and they were both from the same original bud. Since it was an OG pheno and one plant looks like that phenotype...I’m really interested in the other that looks different and tastes different. My OG seeds were from a king Louie XIII bud.

Thanks again guys great information!

 

[Tim1987]

How are feminized seeds made then? Ive read that thats actually the only way to get feminized seeds. Commercially they spray them with something that causes them to herm all at once.

It's a process.
From what i gather-
First you find a stable female that isnt hermaphrodite.
Then take clones.
Put one clone into flower. Spray with whatever crap you want, to force the male genes to show.
Collect the pollen. Destroy the plant.
Then take the second clone, put it into flower, and dust with the pollen of the forced female.
Then most chromosomes are the same, and you'll get nearly all female genes. Its at the cell level.
Then ideally this process is repeated in the offspring, again, and, again, and again. New mum pheno every generation.

Believe me asexual cannabis plants arent the same at all.
Hermaphrodism is an extremely recessive trait.
Ive made the mistake many times of using self pollinated seeds.
A hermaphrodite plant imo is way worse than a male. Get them the hell out of a grow room.

I swear feminized seeds are a big industry conspiracy.
Because feminized seeds aren't good seeds to breed with at all. They are an abomination imo.
But feminized plants are perfect for the consumer market. Because it makes it much, much harder for the consumer to replicate the genes into regular seeds.. One you wont get any males (most likely in hermaphrodite form if any male genes show). Secondly the chromosomes are out of whack in the genes. So the chances of getting hermaphrodites in the future generation if introducing a male, would be much higher.
If they were well bred feminized seeds, it may even take several or many generations of using a father plant to get the male to female ratio back to normal.

There is barely anyone selling regular seeds anymore, and these breeders are laughing all the way to the bank.
The industry is going Monsanto, and most consumers dont even realize. They just want females, so they can get bud to smoke.

I want to make it clear that i have never made feminized seeds, or used them for that matter. I avoid them like the plague. So someone feel free to correct any mistakes i may have made.
But having seeded many plants, and having made the mistake of keeping seeds from self pollinating plants i can tell you for certain, hermaphrodite plants dont produce feminized seeds. They produce a whole heap more hermaphrodites.

 

[Jim_lahey_420]

It's a process.
From what i gather-
First you find a stable female that isnt hermaphrodite.
Then take clones.
Put one clone into flower. Spray with whatever crap you want, to force the male genes to show.
Collect the pollen. Destroy the plant.
Then take the second clone, put it into flower, and dust with the pollen of the forced female.
Then most chromosomes are the same, and you'll get nearly all female genes. Its at the cell level.
Then ideally this process is repeated in the offspring, again, and, again, and again. New mum pheno every generation.

Believe me asexual cannabis plants arent the same at all.
Hermaphrodism is an extremely recessive trait.
Ive made the mistake many times of using self pollinated seeds.
A hermaphrodite plant imo is way worse than a male. Get them the hell out of a grow room.

I swear feminized seeds are a big industry conspiracy.
Because feminized seeds aren't good seeds to breed with at all. They are an abomination imo.
But feminized plants are perfect for the consumer market. Because it makes it much, much harder for the consumer to replicate the genes into regular seeds.. One you wont get any males (most likely in hermaphrodite form if any male genes show). Secondly the chromosomes are out of whack in the genes. So the chances of getting hermaphrodites in the future generation if introducing a male, would be much higher.
If they were well bred feminized seeds, it may even take several or many generations of using a father plant to get the male to female ratio back to normal.

There is barely anyone selling regular seeds anymore, and these breeders are laughing all the way to the bank.
The industry is going Monsanto, and most consumers dont even realize. They just want females, so they can get bud to smoke.

I want to make it clear that i have never made feminized seeds, or used them for that matter. I avoid them like the plague. So someone feel free to correct any mistakes i may have made.
But having seeded many plants, and having made the mistake of keeping seeds from self pollinating plants i can tell you for certain, hermaphrodite plants dont produce feminized seeds. They produce a whole heap more hermaphrodites.

It's a process.
From what i gather-
First you find a stable female that isnt hermaphrodite.
Then take clones.
Put one clone into flower. Spray with whatever crap you want, to force the male genes to show.
Collect the pollen. Destroy the plant.
Then take the second clone, put it into flower, and dust with the pollen of the forced female.
Then most chromosomes are the same, and you'll get nearly all female genes. Its at the cell level.
Then ideally this process is repeated in the offspring, again, and, again, and again. New mum pheno every generation.

Believe me asexual cannabis plants arent the same at all.
Hermaphrodism is an extremely recessive trait.
Ive made the mistake many times of using self pollinated seeds.
A hermaphrodite plant imo is way worse than a male. Get them the hell out of a grow room.

I swear feminized seeds are a big industry conspiracy.
Because feminized seeds aren't good seeds to breed with at all. They are an abomination imo.
But feminized plants are perfect for the consumer market. Because it makes it much, much harder for the consumer to replicate the genes into regular seeds.. One you wont get any males (most likely in hermaphrodite form if any male genes show). Secondly the chromosomes are out of whack in the genes. So the chances of getting hermaphrodites in the future generation if introducing a male, would be much higher.
If they were well bred feminized seeds, it may even take several or many generations of using a father plant to get the male to female ratio back to normal.

There is barely anyone selling regular seeds anymore, and these breeders are laughing all the way to the bank.
The industry is going Monsanto, and most consumers dont even realize. They just want females, so they can get bud to smoke.

I want to make it clear that i have never made feminized seeds, or used them for that matter. I avoid them like the plague. So someone feel free to correct any mistakes i may have made.
But having seeded many plants, and having made the mistake of keeping seeds from self pollinating plants i can tell you for certain, hermaphrodite plants dont produce feminized seeds. They produce a whole heap more hermaphrodites.

Wow thats much more complicated than i thought. I dont really get what these seed companies are gaining by marketing an inferior product though. I would think there would be some seed company out there spreading this information in order to sell their regular seeds. Thank you for that info that was extremely interesting!

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

If they are a quality breeder they work the parents or cross chosen females unsung a chemicle called STS. When sprayed it stops the plants ethelyne production at the contact area. Ethelyne is what signals the plant to make female flowers.

Seeds resulting from these plants later are likely from stress. The seeds themselves are fine. Remove the stress that caused them and no more nanners.

I have grown my own seeds (the few I have found when there are some) many times. I usually plant one right away if dry.

I have never seen one hermie in my garden and the results were as good as the original seeds. Not exactly the same plant but close usually.

Of course I am working with genetics I have grown many times. All different strains and crosses but all female seed plants.

And they clone fine too.

 

[Lucky Luke]

I grow female clones from a self pollinated female from a fem seed.

 

[Tim1987]

Would anyone here pollinate a feminized female, with a male though?
I certainly wouldnt myself.
For sure feminized plants have their uses. They're convenient and make money.
But for producing 50/50 male to female seeds?
Just cant see it being ideal imo.
Im encouraged to think theres very good reason barely anyone sells regular seeds anymore.

 

[ANC]

It's called money....
Give it time and those regular seeds will be very valuable.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

Would anyone here pollinate a feminized female, with a male though?
I certainly wouldnt myself.
For sure feminized plants have their uses. They're convenient and make money.
But for producing 50/50 male to female seeds?
Just cant see it being ideal imo.
Im encouraged to think theres very good reason barely anyone sells regular seeds anymore.

It’s demand. Even 5 years ago most seeds sold in America were regs. Europe had way more fems. The new industry people want fems. Better for plant counts.

That’s why I started using them.

I don’t breed. But I would use my female Herijuana Jack 33 seeds to breed a heri or jack cross from the right pheno. Better luck finding plants closer to the original from a good dedicated breeder than a not so good set of regular parents.

Of course the breeder grows a few hundred plants at a time. I wouldn’t even know where to begin.

 

[Stankiefrankie]

Hey guys here is my bagseed King Louis XIII. Thanks for all the help!!!

 

[Lucky Luke]

Hey guys here is my bagseed King Louis XIII. Thanks for all the help!!!View attachment 4159359

looking tasty but I hope it was bigger than that.

 

[mustbetribbin]

One must not forget that Cannabis naturally turns into a "hermie" plant if it does not receive pollen within a ideal time frame for the plant, at this time then all Cannabis plants will naturally self pollinate (There may be a few rare exceptions).

Hermaphrodism is a natural trait found in Cannabis, it's typically only an issue when the hermaphrodite traits are caused by unnatural intrusions such as light, small growing space (roots), physical plant damage, too little vegative growth before light changes (flip), disease and possibly other stressors that us humans don't fully understand,,,, and so on....

It all depends on how natural the hermaphrodism being expressed is, typically a mature female will put out just a few male pollen sacks naturally right below the top flowering buds , 2-3 male pollen sacks are normal to see on a past due unpollenated female.

Full blown hermie traits on the undesirable side of things would be seen throughout the entire plant, typically 4-12 male pollen sacks found means the plant may have a genetic issue, or was stressed to the point that the plant retaliates to avoid stunted growth, caused by to many unnatural outside disturbances from humans and what we think is best for the plant, and so on and so forth.

Lots of expert breeders are aware that natural hermaphrodism in Cannabis is actually a desirable trait, a natural evolution like trait that continues the varietal uniqueness of the mothering plant strain that self pollenates itself.

Because of the variables involved, hermaphrodism should certainly be approached with caution, but that doesn't mean that positive results not appear eventually, actually positive results appear quite often as "nature finds its way".

Hermaphodism is a gift to those who know how to harness it's power, and the knowledge of when hermie traits can be used to our advantage ( for instance like keeping the last of a dying strain alive by a single female seed pollinating itself).

Many times a hermie plant does not produce hermie seeds.

You could even take a hermie female, and pollinate a hermie male with the pollen from it, and create a strain cross that is inbred to that exact pheno type trait. There is a lot of science to it, check out djshorts info on it.

I don't know it all, but I believe hermaphrodism is not an Evil negative occurance that should be avoided at all cost, it holds value to those who are willing to accept the risk and sacrifice, many rewarding results can be discovered, but it does take time.

 

[Miyagismokes]

pollinate a hermie male

I've never let a male live long enough to know that they herm too...
Learn something new every day.

 

[reallybigjesusfreak]

Hey guys here is my bagseed King Louis XIII. Thanks for all the help!!!View attachment 4159359

That looks super good! I got some Louis xiii when I was in LA last year and found a seed in it, but unfortunatly it was kind of small and didnt sprout. Some seriously good smoke though, The jar it came in still reeks of it.

Glad you had a success. I had a couple seeds from my Bay 11 I had to flower out, and they are not growing like the originals did. One was super lanky, had complete asymetry, and was slooooooooooow. The other one is a little bit better, so I'm gonna flower it out (took clones) and we'll see if I can keep it alive or if she's dead for good.

 

[Dmannn]

Herijuana

That was a nice strain.