The Impact of Whiny Bernie Babies

Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Just a coda on the whole diatribe I just launched. Buck pointed out that voters defeated a universal healthcare bill in Colorado by 80% against. It was an election regarding a policy. No chance of a politician to fuck it up. Not the same as voting for a politician.
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Are you contending that voters always get what they want?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
Are you contending that voters always get what they want?
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No. There are winners and losers. The winners voted in their self interest and got it. This is the most important difference between objective interest and self interest. Self interest is whatever the voter wants at that time. Objective interest presumes knowledge that the vote in fact delivers a specific good to the voter. Clearly, this can't be a known quantity. In too many cases, objective interest is hypothetical, unknowable and therefore not useful as a theory.

rewind

I said
Fogdog said:
Buck pointed out that voters defeated a universal healthcare bill in Colorado by 80% against. It was an election regarding a policy. No chance of a politician to fuck it up. Not the same as voting for a politician.
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Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
Why not?
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Fogdog said:
No. There are winners and losers. The winners voted in their self interest and got it. This is the most important difference between objective interest and self interest. Self interest is whatever the voter wants at that time. Objective interest presumes knowledge that the vote in fact delivers a specific good to the voter. Clearly, this can't be a known quantity. In too many cases, objective interest is hypothetical, unknowable and therefore not useful as a theory.
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S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
You don't understand the difference between an opinion poll, which is a random sample of people who answer a question without consequences and an election in which an electorate votes to answer questions and the votes are counted culminating in a result that matters. Opinion polls have not been shown reliable predictors of election results. You keep making the same error. Repeatedly stating a falsehood doesn't make it true.
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except for the poll that had Clinton within margin of error and Sanders +12 against Trump.

repeatedly stating a falsehood doesn't make it true.
 
S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Again, this study consists of an analysis of various policy debates and compares the effect various groups had on whether or not a policy was enacted. As you correctly state, the group that were most likely to see it's interests enacted into policy were economic elites, then industrial groups who are the most active a lobbying for their own interests. Mass groups like the NRA and I suppose, NAACP had practically no effect and majority opinion had virtually no effect. I'm not going to go into issues with the study although I can see many. I'm just going to go with it for the sake of discussion.

Unlike you, the article doesn't delve into factors to explain why. Not surprising that you "just know" and what you "just know" fits your bias.

The article does mention additional work that could be done, such as studying the effect of efforts to sway opinion as a means to affect policies. Why anybody would spend so much time and money swaying public opinion when it doesn't have an effect on policy is an interesting question. Makes me think that the study is just an interesting result and the wealthy spend a lot on right wing propaganda to sway public opinion because it does matter regardless of what some analysts found and documented on the internet.

Does this surprise? I mean really? Breaking News!!! Economic elites have a lot of power!!! I mean duh. Economic elites have been running this country and all others for quite some time now. In fact, they have been doing so since there has been civilization.

So, you jump to a conclusion that this proves "corrupt Democrats" . This article doesn't conclude that. (of course you would focus on Democrats and not Republicans) The results of the study say policies are enacted that are favored by economic elites. Republicans have Koch and Trump. Democrats have Kennedys and Soros. Wealthy families can be liberal and support liberal causes. There is a lot of disagreement in social ideology between ruling clans.

Nothing in that paper in any way validates your claim of "because an opinion poll shows 80% supports people will support a total overhaul of the healthcare system". Or other liberal initiatives. I still point out to you that way too many people vote for representation who out and out say they want less government involvement in health care, not less. And that's what who have in power right now. Same goes with campaign finance reform and the environment. People always vote in their own self interest. Clearly, these issues simply don't affect the way a lot of people vote nowadays. As Buck pointed out, only 20% voted for universal healthcare in Colorado.

This paper has nothing to do with what Buck and I have been saying. What I've been saying all along that opinion polls are unreliable predictors of how people vote. Buck points out that healthcare bills have failed at the polls lately in spite of good opinion polling numbers.

You conflate opinion polls with voting and that's plain wrong. Time after time you tell me about how 80% of all the people support single payer healthcare. So, you say, people will vote for Bernie and healthcare. I continue to point out that no matter how well an issue or person did recently in public opinion polls, a majority of voters in more than a majority of states have voted for right wing representatives who openly state they will never support single payer healthcare. I conclude people in those states are more conservative than you claim. I also definitely stand on the assertion that the only poll that matters is the election polls. This paper notwithstanding.
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repeatedly stating a falsehood doesn't make it true no matter how TLDR it is.
 
S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Just a coda on the whole diatribe I just launched. Buck pointed out that voters defeated a universal healthcare bill in Colorado by 80% against. It was an election regarding a policy. No chance of a politician to fuck it up. Not the same as voting for a politician.
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we need our trusty coloradoan opinion.. @ttystikk?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
schuylaar said:
except for the poll that had Clinton within margin of error and Sanders +12 against Trump.

repeatedly stating a falsehood doesn't make it true.
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Explain me how it was that African Americans, Hispanics and women of the Democratic Party were hoodwinked by nefarious DNC actions to rig the primary. And white men weren't. White men were the only demographic that consistently voted for Sanders. Everybody had the same information. According to your claim 55%% of all women were taken in by this secret conspiracy and only 40% of white men. What are you actually saying when you dismiss the ability of black people and Hispanics to discern fraud?
 
S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Explain me how it was that African Americans, Hispanics and women of the Democratic Party were hoodwinked by nefarious DNC actions to rig the primary. And white men weren't. White men were the only demographic that consistently voted for Sanders. Everybody had the same information. According to your claim 55%% of all women were taken in by this secret conspiracy and only 40% of white men. What are you actually saying when you dismiss the ability of black people and Hispanics to discern fraud?
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nope.
 
S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Oh, you are back. What a wonderful greeting. Thanks.

Can you please explain to me how it is that black, brown and female voters were affected by nefarious DNC actions to rig the primary and white men weren't?
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um, what exactly is 'white mans disease'?

ive never heard of it, but its sounds like a derogatory remark, a stereotype perhaps?

since it was your quote..i figured you'd like to explain.

is that what black people say about whites?
 
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