COB Nutrient differences.

coolbreez1

Well-Known Member
Based on all the experience people have gained on there forums using various DIY builds. What are the biggest challenges in switching from traditional grow lights to white COBS.

Most importantly what are the biggest changes in nutrient requirements.
 

majins

Well-Known Member
When I went from HPS to Chinese LED (red/blue 5W chips) 900W total.
I fought a magnesium deficiency the whole flowering using cal+mag. And using foxfarm veg and flowering.
Tap water was good back then and PH would end up at 6.0 after nutes.

When I changed over to 600W of CREE 3070 COBs (running at 50W each)
So far all iv been feeding is "Greendream-1" @ 2.0 EC and adjusting PH since tap water has gone shit coming out at 7.5 after nutes.
 

Growmau5

Well-Known Member
Based on all the experience people have gained on there forums using various DIY builds. What are the biggest challenges in switching from traditional grow lights to white COBS.

Most importantly what are the biggest changes in nutrient requirements.
biggest issues.
-what to do with all the extra money in my wallet after paying for my electric bill.
-what to do with all the extra bud from my harvests with COBs

increasing calcium & magnesium, potassium deficiency, etc etc I think all that is bullshit. I used a liberal amount of these elements in my 4k HPS room, and continue to do so with my COBs. I have seen zero difference in the plants needs under one light versus the other.
 

wietefras

Well-Known Member
How would you know it's bullshit if you haven't actually tested it properly? You throw a random shit load in there and don't get deficiencies. OMG really?

I was doing fine without extra calcium using HPS and now with the COBs I need to add some. Not much, but some.

Biggest difference is in air treatment though. I had to change things around a little to keep the temperature up and also to keep the humidity low. With HPS it was pretty much the opposite. Always a struggle to cool it enough and to keep the humidity up.

But that will vary with your local climate of course.
 

Rahz

Well-Known Member
I've never had an issue myself. I gave a lamp to a buddy to replace a 150w MH he was using to veg. Killed his plants dead.

Buddy's basement is under 28C. That's the first I've heard about temp being involved, but it would explain things.
 

weed-whacker

Well-Known Member
I've never had an issue myself. I gave a lamp to a buddy to replace a 150w MH he was using to veg. Killed his plants dead.

Buddy's basement is under 28C. That's the first I've heard about temp being involved, but it would explain things.
especially with immobile nutrients like calcium
 

Growmau5

Well-Known Member
How would you know it's bullshit if you haven't actually tested it properly? You throw a random shit load in there and don't get deficiencies. OMG really?

I was doing fine without extra calcium using HPS and now with the COBs I need to add some. Not much, but some.

Biggest difference is in air treatment though. I had to change things around a little to keep the temperature up and also to keep the humidity low. With HPS it was pretty much the opposite. Always a struggle to cool it enough and to keep the humidity up.

But that will vary with your local climate of course.
Liberally is the word I carefully chose. You said and added "random shit load"
i have used 5-7ml per gallon of calmag for the last 10 years under every lighting scheme ive used on dozens of strains. I do the same today, occasionally Ill add some NFTG herculean harvest (CaPO4). From my personal experience with many different configurations of LEDs, and "testing" these lights on various strains, ive never had a calcium deficiency.

The pages of these and many other forums are filled with new growers screaming "I've got a Cal-Mag" deficiency after switching to LEDs. Its become this blanket statement that simply is not accurate. "oh, you are using LED, bump up your Calmag bro" I think its more valuable for people to understand that Calmag is not an element on the periodic table. And to understand that engaging accessory pigments and asking chloroplasts to perform at a higher level (under COB leds) in high ppf lighting setups, may require the grower to make many adjustments. not just dump some more calmag on it.
 
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wietefras

Well-Known Member
@Growmau5, Well it's really a given that led lights will decrease calcium uptake specifically. Calcium is taken up relative to the evaporation and with led you have less heat on the plants than from HPS, ergo less evaporation and therefore ... less calcium uptake.

You seem to be "overdosing" your plants on calcium and magnesium (both elements on the periodic table) so you won't see calcium deficiencies obviously, but you must be able to understand that that makes you one of the least qualified people to make statements about slight calcium deficiencies caused by lighting differences.

People who dose their extra Calcium in more frugal amounts, or like me none at all while using HPS lights, can notice this effect.

I agree that it's only a small diference, but it's "bullshit" (to quote you literally) to pretend there is no effect on calcium uptake. Depending on the strain you might not even notice an issue when just using the basic nutrients, but it simply is a fact that with led you have slightly lower calcium uptake compared to HPS.
 

Growmau5

Well-Known Member
@Growmau5, Well it's really a given that led lights will decrease calcium uptake specifically. Calcium is taken up relative to the evaporation and with led you have less heat on the plants than from HPS, ergo less evaporation and therefore ... less calcium uptake.

You seem to be "overdosing" your plants on calcium and magnesium (both elements on the periodic table) so you won't see calcium deficiencies obviously, but you must be able to understand that that makes you one of the least qualified people to make statements about slight calcium deficiencies caused by lighting differences.

People who dose their extra Calcium in more frugal amounts, or like me none at all while using HPS lights, can notice this effect.

I agree that it's only a small diference, but it's "bullshit" (to quote you literally) to pretend there is no effect on calcium uptake. Depending on the strain you might not even notice an issue when just using the basic nutrients, but it simply is a fact that with led you have slightly lower calcium uptake compared to HPS.
I would like to offer some testing that I believe pertains to the OPs question. I recently finish a series of videos evaluating 2 nutrients lines:
-one with a multiple bottle liquid line offering me full control and the ability to dump a "random shit load" of calmag into my feed solution
-the other line was Jack's 3-2-1, a line used and documented by thousands of cannabis with a host of lighting technologies.
-I never deviated from the 3-2-1 ratio which appeared to supply adequate levels of calcium and magnesium. with no alteration or additional additives
and it is the SINGLE MOST FRUGAL hydroponic nutrient on earth.
-with all variables controlled, the result was nearly identical.
HPS, T5, CMH users across the world are successful with this system at these ratios. I am an LED grower and I was successful with it at the same ratios. I think the question becomes, what kind of nutrients are the led growers claiming "calmag" deficiencies, and how qualified are they to distinguish calmag def from nute lockout or burn.

Bringing this whole thing back to the OP.
Based on all the experience people have gained on there forums using various DIY builds. What are the biggest challenges in switching from traditional grow lights to white COBS.

Most importantly what are the biggest changes in nutrient requirements.
Simply "switching" to LEDs is not enough information to elicit the response "add more calmag" that is my point here. And yes, generally I think this recommendation is bullshit. read the plant, monitor the enviroment, and understand what is actually in all the pretty bottles from the hydrostore, then respond to those needs accordingly. like Wietefras said, Anything that slows transpiration: high humidity, cold temperatures, etc can induce calcium deficiency even if the calcium levels are normal in the growing medium. so if your room is running colder due to a "switch to LED" the last thing you would do is add more CALMAG!

As far as being qualified to talk about the calcium needs of organisms, I spent 3 months on a research vessel studying the deposition of Calcium carbonate in invertebrate marine organisms. so im pretty familiar with how it works within cells, photosynthetic or otherwise.

with that said , i do understand your perspective on: if you are always overdosing, how would you ever see a deficiency. my response to it is, what is the benefit of running an important element like Calcium so close to the razors edge, that you almost become deficient. its very inexpensive, easy to obtain, comes in a variety of forms and aids in so many processes in the plant that that we should be saying NPK.Ca
 
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wietefras

Well-Known Member
There really is no debate here. Calcium uptake is passive and therefore will be lower when there is less evaporation. With led lights you have less evaporation than with HPS and therefore less calcium uptake. Period.

It might not be a huge difference, but there is one. If you use nutrients, additives or water high in calcium it won't be an issue, but when you were feeding calcium "to need", you can definitely notice the need increasing.

BTW No one is making your dreaded "bullshit" recommendation, so what's with the hysteria anyway? Or did you see anyone saying to add more calmag? You really are the one spreading misinformation.
 

Growmau5

Well-Known Member
There really is no debate here. Calcium uptake is passive and therefore will be lower when there is less evaporation. With led lights you have less evaporation than with HPS and therefore less calcium uptake. Period.

It might not be a huge difference, but there is one. If you use nutrients, additives or water high in calcium it won't be an issue, but when you were feeding calcium "to need", you can definitely notice the need increasing.

BTW No one is making your dreaded "bullshit" recommendation, so what's with the hysteria anyway? Or did you see anyone saying to add more calmag? You really are the one spreading misinformation.
im not arguing with you. I am arguing with the knee jerk recommendation to simply add more calmag, because a person bought an led light. I think this is an incredibly common recommendation on this topic and I think it is misinformation..

and im not hysteric , im chill as a cucumber. but I have gone from admiring you and your knowledge on a host of topics, to not really wanting to interact with you due to the way you pick at people in the Water Cooled thread, and me here. then flip it on them, asking whats wrong w/them for responding to :

How would you know it's bullshit if you haven't actually tested it properly? You throw a random shit load in there and don't get deficiencies. OMG really?
you must be able to understand that that makes you one of the least qualified people to make statements about slight calcium deficiencies caused by lighting differences.
so what's with the hysteria anyway? You really are the one spreading misinformation.
 

doz

Well-Known Member
biggest issues.
-what to do with all the extra money in my wallet after paying for my electric bill.
-what to do with all the extra bud from my harvests with COBs

increasing calcium & magnesium, potassium deficiency, etc etc I think all that is bullshit. I used a liberal amount of these elements in my 4k HPS room, and continue to do so with my COBs. I have seen zero difference in the plants needs under one light versus the other.
I utilize Cal-Mag (not individual) and have always had good success keeping them together. I know a few people have had single issues but I think that may be due to the water/PH more than the cal-mag bundled. I am reading in this thread that Calcium is the issue whereas I always believed it to be a Magnesium deficiency due to cobs. Either way, adding CM bundled never hurt and I run tap water as well (which is high in Calcium and Magnesium already here).

That said, I grew the same plants with a 1000k HPS as I did under COB lighting. Same cuttings in fact. I kept the nutrient regimen the same (I utilize FFOF with Light Warrior 2:1 ratio for soil as a reference) and noticed as soon as 2 weeks in that I was deficient on the cal-mag. I actually had to double the feeding on cal-mag and have noticed that at times, I need up to triple the amount during certain cycles of the plant.

I personally do not believe its from temperatures as I run a negative system. I utilized a cool hood with the HPS setup which pulled air through the hood and exited in the attic. With the COBS, same thing except it was just pulling the room air. There is no real intake system as its all negative pressure so it pulls the house air temperature (which is about 73* year round) with actual grow temperature in the upper 70s. I have a 440CFM fan pulling through a filter. This has always kept my temps inline and no real difference from COB to HPS. Also, I run in fairly low humidity, about 10-20%.

So while cal/mag is not always needed when switching as others have reported, it is definitely a possibility depending upon your setup. All things equal in the grow besides the lighting, my plants needed it.
 

JorgeGonzales

Well-Known Member
we should be saying NPK.Ca
Maybe even CaNKMgP.

OK, that's stupid. But from memory, calcium is usually the highest percentage in cannabis leaf samples, and more magnesium uptake than phosphorus. Might just be a matter of taking whatever is available though. Silicon usually ends up a few % too.

Jack's is great stuff. Actually I remember on the Dude Grows interview with Dyna-Gro guy he had some numbers he rattled off from leaf samples too. I like Dyna-Gro, but one part solutions do tend to lack calcium for obvious reasons.
 

loftygoals

Well-Known Member
There really is no debate here. Calcium uptake is passive and therefore will be lower when there is less evaporation. With led lights you have less evaporation than with HPS and therefore less calcium uptake. Period.

It might not be a huge difference, but there is one. If you use nutrients, additives or water high in calcium it won't be an issue, but when you were feeding calcium "to need", you can definitely notice the need increasing.

BTW No one is making your dreaded "bullshit" recommendation, so what's with the hysteria anyway? Or did you see anyone saying to add more calmag? You really are the one spreading misinformation.
You are wrong.

Calcium uptake in roots and transport up the plant is mediated by Calcium ATPases and Hydrogen/Calcium antiporters. This is not a passive process(1,2).

Period.

Read your post again in that context and consider how you come across.

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15961895
2. http://m.aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/92/4/487.full
 
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