I thought you guys were "winning"...?

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
You do this in every debate when you're losing. Put up or shut up.
Prove that I made the claims I you say I made or that the chart I posted did.
hey, I admit I could be wrong here.

It's quite possible that chart was designed solely to show activists from one side vastly outspend activists from other if you discount the fact the there are also 10s of billions of dollars being spent on the "outspent side" (while including the scientists from other funding).

Somehow I doubt it though.

What was your intent of posting that chart?
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Ah, once you get called, you resort to the vague "I could be wrong or I could be right"

No. You made a specific statement regarding what you wanted to say I claimed, got called on your bullshit and you were flat out wrong.

It isn't whether or not you were wrong, it is whether or not you knew you were wrong.
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
Ah, once you get called, you resort to the vague "I could be wrong or I could be right"

No. You made a specific statement regarding what you wanted to say I claimed, got called on your bullshit and you were flat out wrong.

It isn't whether or not you were wrong, it is whether or not you knew you were wrong.
Dude, you posted a chart that included scientists from government funding but not the money.

What was the intent of you posting that chart?

simple enough question you keep avoiding, why?
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Somehow I doubt you are seeking the truth after posting a chart that says the Koch brothers are outspending the science community by close to a hundred. You realize government funded studies are in the 10's of billions now. For your chart to be true, the Koch brothers would have to spend trillions.
No, here is your claim.

Put up or shut up.

You made a claim, back it or admit you're full of shit.
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
No, here is your claim.

Put up or shut up.
The scientists included on the chart are the consensus right? The consensus are mostly from government funded researchers right? The chart doesn't include that little tidbit right?

What was your intent in posting that chart?

This is not a knock against government funded science. NASA rules!
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
read your claim again

it was clear what you meant
The scientists included on the chart are the consensus right? The consensus are mostly from government funded researchers right? The chart doesn't include that little tidbit right?

What was your intent in posting that chart?
Every debate you get into turns into this shit. You swear up and down that you didn't say what you clearly fucking said. You suggest I'm hearing voices in my head. You lost the debate utterly so you resort to this obfuscation and you do it with a lot of debates with a lot of people.

You are completely full of shit.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
You even went to another thread insisting that I was a liar and that you were just calling out lies. Now if you just admit you're full of shit, we can continue to debate the actual thread topic.

or you can just stfu
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
read your claim again

it was clear what you meant


Every debate you get into turns into this shit. You swear up and down that you didn't say what you clearly fucking said. You suggest I'm hearing voices in my head. You lost the debate utterly so you resort to this obfuscation and you do it with a lot of debates with a lot of people.

You are completely full of shit.
sigh, you are one dull creature

I make the claim the chart distorts reality. You ask me how so. I say it shows the Koch brothers outspending the science community by mulitudes which is inherently impossible unless they have trillions. The chart uses the scientific community as the consensus yet not the money involved.

What was your intent in posting that chart? ftr, I don't believe you have the integrity to answer this honestly now, please prove me wrong.
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
You even went to another thread insisting that I was a liar and that you were just calling out lies. Now if you just admit you're full of shit, we can continue to debate the actual thread topic.

or you can just stfu
would you like to rehash those lies for everyone again or move along?

It's a mixed market/ so your saying it's socialist ring a bell?

How about you have to have a disability while serving lie?

How about medicare/medicaid and SSID are not socialist programs because private companies accept these socialist programs as payments?

Not one iota?

feeling good about bringing it up yet?

what was your intent for posting that chart?
 

althor

Well-Known Member
you just did it again. You're trying to make it seem like i'm saying something i'm not actually saying... maybe because you think it makes you look better, or something.

Scientists do science. They have no control over what the science-illiterate masses interpret when faced with propaganda based on that science, and they have no control over whether politicians and special interest groups take the real data and manipulate it in order to gain public support for whatever agenda.

Although sometimes, since scientists are actually human too, some of them may do something very unscientific (or perhaps very strategic...), and not interfere with the misuse of the data they have provided, in exchange for whatever benefits are offered. Not all of them are absolutely honor-bound and terminally ethical. Some of them will actually go along with lies, in order to gain substantially more wealth. I seriously doubt that 0% of all scientists would ever make an exception to their scientific principles, especially if they happen to find themselves between a rock and a hard place, with an opportunity to profit by doing something they'd rather not do. This happens to lots of people, and lots of people violate their own ethics; sometimes because it's necessary for survival or prosperity, and sometimes because they're threatened, and/or sometimes because they may be one of the many sociopath/psychopaths in this world, who either cannot discern, or do not care, what is right and wrong, but only care about getting what they want, by any means necessary.

I'm not saying "that's how scientists are," i'm saying "that's how some humans just are, and all scientists are humans, and therefore susceptible to various types of influence, and not necessarily terminally honor-bound to ethics." Most people have a price; even scientists.

And if those interested, happen to find the right scientists... well, then you have a very knowledgeable person who understands science well enough to exploit it in the most believable ways. And of course, they would have controversy and lots of people claiming that person is wrong or lying or incompetent... but "ain't nobody got time fo' dat." Most people will probably just think the others being critical are "jealous" or "mad" or whatever.

You might be surprised by the quantity of very dumb and careless people in this world. You can go ahead and make your joke about me being one of them, but when you do, realize that i've only met maybe 2-3 people IRL, who i felt were "on my level" or better. Most of the people i've met are literally simpletons, and they possess neither time nor inclination nor ability, to verify every "scientific" claim levied at them from all directions, from all media sources. They wouldn't know what's right or wrong, either way... so they'd usually just think whatever feels right, based on whatever the TV says, whether complete or incomplete or completely false. The masses are easily mislead, and people who need grants to conduct research in order to continue their careers as scientists, sometimes have to compromise themselves, in order to continue doing something... related, to what they would like to do.
Must be really difficult for you to live in this world filled with all of us peons....
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
I make the claim the chart distorts reality
No, you made a very specific claim.
Somehow I doubt you are seeking the truth after posting a chart that says the Koch brothers are outspending the science community by close to a hundred. You realize government funded studies are in the 10's of billions now. For your chart to be true, the Koch brothers would have to spend trillions.
And now you are still desperately trying to obfuscate the debate because you are demonstrably completely full of shit and that is what we are going to stay focused on.
 

reasonevangelist

Well-Known Member
lol yeah that guy is in for some tldr worse than kynes
Yep, people don't listen, and don't want to read or understand anything unpleasant or which conflicts with their preferred false paradigms, which is probably the primary reason the world is so fucked up, and will remain so until something drastically changes.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Yep, people don't listen, and don't want to read or understand anything unpleasant or which conflicts with their preferred false paradigms, which is probably the primary reason the world is so fucked up, and will remain so until something drastically changes.
If only people would listen to you...
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
No, you made a very specific claim.


And now you are still desperately trying to obfuscate the debate because you are demonstrably completely full of shit and that is what we are going to stay focused on.
So, the chart was an honest representation? I am making the claim that it is not, you keep saying I'm the one being untrue.

What was your intent when posting that chart?
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
So, the chart was an honest representation? I am making the claim that it is not, you keep saying I'm the one being untrue.

What was your intent when posting that chart?
Well, I will tell what the chart CERTAINLY DOESN'T IMPLY.
Somehow I doubt you are seeking the truth after posting a chart that says the Koch brothers are outspending the science community by close to a hundred. You realize government funded studies are in the 10's of billions now. For your chart to be true, the Koch brothers would have to spend trillions.
But you don't care, you just want to distort my arguments, because it's easier for you to argue against yourself than it is to argue what someone is actually saying.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Actually no citation is required, at all. The burden to convince the public lies firmly on the shoulders of the proponents of this THEORY. Furthermore, they don't get to tell the public they're trying to convince, that they've received enough convincing and it's time to fall into lockstep. The debate isn't over until WE say it's over.

Unfortunately for the Eco-Loons, they require the consent of the public to implement the changes that they so desperately crave. Don't like it, tough shit. Keep chipping away, maybe in 20-30 years you'll be able to convince everyone that dire consequences are only a century away.
LoL
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-scientific-consensus.htm

An article with two citations demonstrating an overwhelming majority of scientists agree we're behind it.
Science achieves a consensus when scientists stop arguing. When a question is first asked – like ‘what would happen if we put a load more CO2 in the atmosphere?’ – there may be many hypotheses about cause and effect. Over a period of time, each idea is tested and retested – the processes of the scientific method – because all scientists know that reputation and kudos go to those who find the right answer (and everyone else becomes an irrelevant footnote in the history of science). Nearly all hypotheses will fall by the wayside during this testing period, because only one is going to answer the question properly, without leaving all kinds of odd dangling bits that don’t quite add up. Bad theories are usually rather untidy.

But the testing period must come to an end. Gradually, the focus of investigation narrows down to those avenues that continue to make sense, that still add up, and quite often a good theory will reveal additional answers, or make powerful predictions, that add substance to the theory.

So a consensus in science is different from a political one. There is no vote. Scientists just give up arguing because the sheer weight of consistent evidence is too compelling, the tide too strong to swim against any longer. Scientists change their minds on the basis of the evidence, and a consensus emerges over time. Not only do scientists stop arguing, they also start relying on each other's work. All science depends on that which precedes it, and when one scientist builds on the work of another, he acknowledges the work of others through citations. The work that forms the foundation of climate change science is cited with great frequency by many other scientists, demonstrating that the theory is widely accepted - and relied upon.

In the scientific field of climate studies – which is informed by many different disciplines – the consensus is demonstrated by the number of scientists who have stopped arguing about what is causing climate change – and that’s nearly all of them. A survey of 928 peer-reviewed abstracts on the subject 'global climate change' published between 1993 and 2003 shows that not a single paper rejected the consensus position that global warming is man caused (Oreskes 2004).

A follow-up study by the Skeptical Science team of over 12,000 peer-reviewed abstracts on the subjects of 'global warming' and 'global climate change' published between 1991 and 2011 found that of the papers taking a position on the cause of global warming, over 97% agreed that humans are causing it (Cook 2013). The scientific authors of the papers were also contacted and asked to rate their own papers, and again over 97% whose papers took a position on the cause said humans are causing global warming.
ABSTRACT
We analyze the evolution of the scientific consensus on anthropogenic global warming (AGW) in the peer-reviewed scientific literature, examining 11 944 climate abstracts from 1991–2011 matching the topics 'global climate change' or 'global warming'. We find that 66.4% of abstracts expressed no position on AGW, 32.6% endorsed AGW, 0.7% rejected AGW and 0.3% were uncertain about the cause of global warming. Among abstracts expressing a position on AGW, 97.1% endorsed the consensus position that humans are causing global warming. In a second phase of this study, we invited authors to rate their own papers. Compared to abstract ratings, a smaller percentage of self-rated papers expressed no position on AGW (35.5%). Among self-rated papers expressing a position on AGW, 97.2% endorsed the consensus. For both abstract ratings and authors' self-ratings, the percentage of endorsements among papers expressing a position on AGW marginally increased over time. Our analysis indicates that the number of papers rejecting the consensus on AGW is a vanishingly small proportion of the published research.
just going to leave these here...
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
Well, I will tell what the chart CERTAINLY DOESN'T IMPLY.


But you don't care, you just want to distort my arguments, because it's easier for you to argue against yourself than it is to argue what someone is actually saying.
How can a chart use the scientific consensus of funded scientists comparing scientists, and not include that funding when comparing funding be given credence?

What was your intent for posting that chart?
 
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