CREE CXA 3000°K/80CRI spectrum analysis.

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
That looks very impressive SDS, I'm glad that you'll be doing the analysis from now on :-)

For reference these are my numbers for the CXA 3000K:
Code:
CXA 3000K
Power in        : 3.76 W (9.40V x 0.40A)
Luminous flux   : 457 lumen
Efficacy        : 122 lumen/W
LER             : 328 lumen/W
Radiometric eff.: 37.1%
Radiant flux    : 1.39 W
Rel.quantum eff.: 86.5%  (McCree 1972 RQE data)
Photon flux     : 6.80 umol/s (1.81 umol/J, RQE adjusted 1.56 umol/J)
PPF             : 6.50 umol/s (1.73 umol/J)
420-480 nm blue : 10.0% power, 7.9% photons
620-680 nm red  : 24.2% power, 26.9% photons
Lux to photons  : 67.3 lux:umol/m2/s
As you can see I've dabbled with the McCree relative quantum efficiency (RQE) too; However it doesn't seem relevant at all. It was measured with monochromatic low intensity light, but everything changes when you use 1) white light 2) high intensity light. PPF (in umol) tells a much better story, together with...

Blue light. I used only the range of blue that has the most morphological effect. The 420-480nm range is based on this action spectrum:
View attachment 3175796
(source)

Finally, you can see a "Lux to photons" number of 67.3. With this number everyone with a lux meter is now also the proud owner of a PAR meter. Simply divide the number of lux by 67.3 to get the PAR (in umol/m2/s). For example, 50,000 lux would correspond to 740 umol. Well at least in theory, and only for the CXA 3000K spectrum.


Not quite ....
Modern measurements done ,with a variety of different illumination types and schemes ,
as also with different species of plants ,come to confirm that the 1972 McCree RQE reference table ,is actually very
accurate regarding Chamber grown (or indoor grown ) plants ...
It seems that the RQE ,does not alter significally between species and/or illumination used ...

A bit different values from the McCree RQE values show the Field -grown plants ...

(Check Figure 1.9 here => http://plantsinaction.science.uq.edu.au/edition1/?q=content/1-2-2-chlorophyll-absorption-and-photosynthetic-action-spectra )

Still the McCree 1972 RQE ,is a valuable table/ curve to us ....

Check also here :

http://www.uccs.edu/~scastell/ges2050/web/lab_6/what_light_do_plants_need_2012-10-05.pdf

and here :


http://photobiology.info/Gorton.html


Thanx for the info on UV/blue region ..

Cheers.
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
So what do you think is the official/best to reference, LER of the 3000k CXA's?

Well ,it seems I did some 'mistakes' there ....

1) I did not calculate for the range 380 -780 nm ...
(A big mistake ...)

2) I used the wrong CIE reference ...
(it seems that the old CIE 1924 ,is used by led manufacturers ...)


I've to re-digitize for the CXA ...
I fixed the CIE ref,meanwhile ...
(I've replaced with CIE1924 )

And that's what I got for LER estimation of the 3000K 80 cri ...
new spreadsheet.JPG


Estimated LER = 328,142 ...

(Still I'm missing some wl inputs ...New spreadsheet is not ready yet ...)

For now,let's stick to the 'official " LER of 325 ....

Cheers.
 
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stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Well ..Wasn't that Mr.Flux got an estimated LER of 328 lm/ Wφ for the CXA 3000K 80/CRI ?
I'm using the CIE 1924 Luminous efficiency function ( Photopic V(λ) ) ...
http://cvrl.ioo.ucl.ac.uk/index.htm

The CIE 1931 2-deg CMFs (CIE, 1932), which form the basis for most practical colorimetry, are based on the chromaticity coordinates obtained by Guild (1931) and by Wright (1928). Chromaticity coordinates, however, provide only a relative measure of the ratios of the three primaries needed to match each spectrum color, whereas CMFs specify absolute energy values. In order to reconstruct the CMFs from the Wright and Guild data, it was assumed that the CIE1924 V(l) photopic luminosity function (CIE, 1926) is a linear combination of the three CMFs (see Wyszecki & Stiles, 1982), for a description of the reconstruction and for the tabulated values. It has long been clear that the CIE1924 V(λ) that was used to construct the CIE 1931 2-deg CMFs seriously underestimates sensitivity at wavelengths below 460 nm, so that these CMFs are seriously in error at short wavelengths.

The Judd and Judd-Vos modifications are attempts to overcome this problem.

See also Table I(3.3.1) of Wyszecki & Stiles (1982).
http://cvrl.ioo.ucl.ac.uk/database/text/cmfs/ciexyz31.htm

Ok ,there might be some fluctuations from the digitising ,but those are of 0,000x level ...
Although ,I'm getting pretty good I should say !!!
final digitised spectrum cxa3000K 80 cri.JPG


(No...I'm lying my @$$ off ...:P..It's engauge software ,that's simple and amazing ... )


But also the range spreads from 380 ,up to 780 region ....Many nm in betweeen ..
Might be that small errors ,add-up ...

Cree says that is 325 ...
Both me and Mr Flux ,have estimated to be around ~328 ,actually ...
(And probably we've used different ways to get to the same ,result... )
cxa 3070 z4 1400mA.JPG


Anyway ...

150/325= 0.461538
150/328 = 0.457317

The difference is 4,221 mW of light( less for SDS/Mr.Flux case ) for every electrical Watt

In efficiency percent terms ,that translates to an ' error' of - 0.91% in efficiency ...
Say 1% ...

Not much of a big deal,afterall ...


Cheers!
 
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stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Cree CXA3070 , Bin : AB / 1400mA / Tc=55°C
3000°K 80CRI


3000K 80CRI AB 1400 55.JPG



...............................................................................................................................................................................................

PAR LI : Photosynthetic Active Radiation Light Integral per x Time .
BioPot Flux : Flux (380-780 nm μmol/sec ) x RQE

zΦ: 1 Watt / Sum ( yΦ 380-780 nm ) .
1 Watt radiant power divided with the sum of relative power values of every nm (1 nm steps ) of the range
380-780.Every given y rel pwr value multiplied with zΦ,will equal to radiant power of the x wavelength ,if total radiant power is 1 Watt .The relative power graph "decoder " ....LOL ...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well ,I wanted to check some things ....

So ,I 've digitized the rel. power curve from the CXA3070 3000°K 93-95 CRI ....

( Does anybody know the actual LER provided by Cree ? )


Here is the digitized rel pwr graph in the spreadsheet ....

3000K 93 CRI Y2 1400 55 relpwrspctr.JPG



And here versus the digitized 3000K 80 CRI rel pwr curve ...

80 vs 93.JPG


LER remains unknown ..
Ler 0.JPG

Without it ,nothing seems to work ,except few basic features ,like el.power ,lm/ Watt ...and ...
LER estimation ...

:P


Of 276,333

So ....

For Bin: Y2 @1400mA ,Tc=55°C the 3000K 93CRI and estimated LER value of 276...
ler 276.JPG


What about 276-3 =273 ?
(:

For Bin: Y2 @1400mA ,Tc=55°C the 3000K 93CRI and estimated LER value of 273...
ler 273.JPG


Might be 276+3 ?
o_O...
Not really..Probably no ... 279 ? Say 280 ,then !

For Bin: Y2 @1400mA ,Tc=55°C the 3000K 93CRI and estimated LER value of 280...
ler 280.JPG
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Wow awesome work! I love how Mr Flux LER agrees with yours and Crees so closely. I assume we get a slight spectral shift depending on Tj and maybe even as the COB ages a bit?

So SDS, could you make a graph that compares the relative output of the CXA3000K AB @ 1.4A versus the CXA3000K Y2 93/95/CRI @ 1.4A? ( I am assuming the one in the post above was not adjusted?)

So what is the verdict on the 700nm+ range, photosynthetically useful or wasted Watts?
 
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stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Wow awesome work! I love how Mr Flux LER agrees with yours and Crees so closely. I assume we get a slight spectral shift depending on Tj and maybe even as the COB ages a bit?

So SDS, could you make a graph that compares the relative output of the CXA3000K AB @ 1.4A versus the CXA3000K 93/95/CRI @ 1.4A? ( I am assuming the one in the post above was not adjusted?)

So what is the verdict on the 700nm+ range, photosynthetically useful or wasted Watts?
1) the graph that uploaded in the pic shows exactly this thing ...
the relative output of the CXA3000K versus the CXA3000K 93/95/CRI ...
What probably you mean is the Absolute Radiometric output comparison ...
(Thus you've mentioned bins and Io ..Cause in relative comparison ,they are not needed ..
As it involves normalised to 100% values of W / nm )

About the Absolute Radiometric output comparison graph ....
In Flux units (umols /sec ) or radiant power Φ (Watt ) ?
(they are going to have differences ) ....
Tomorrow ...Or the day after ...Not much free time and I need a good rest ,too ...


2) Photosynthesis regarding,the radiation over 700nm ,is pretty much useless ...
Photomorphogenesis and circadian rythm regarding ,it shows powerful effects ,
depending the duration,power and the ratio with certain other wls ( reds 640-680 & green wls ) ....

It can speed up the flowering ...

(I 've harvested a WR plant -of 10+ weeks of normal maturation time - by the end of 6th (!!!)
week in 12/12 ...Totally mature ! ..
Under ~ 150 W of 2700K 95 CRI ..
Yields ?
Just forget it ...Plant does not have the time to 'pack' mass on buds ....
Buds get also "pyramid shaped ",as formation of new budsites ,ceases rather quick ...)

it can boost Shade Avoidance syndrome in some cases ....

It stretches the plants ..(increased internodal distance )

It helps greatly in seed sprouting ... (until cotyledons are wide open ...then it stretches the plant(s) ...)
And plenty of other things ...
But the most hard fact ,has been given by McCree (! ) ,published at year 1972 ...
RQE of >700 nm wls ,is close to null ....

Some ,won't hurt and might be beneficial ...

But more or less ..
Yes wasted Watts ....

Check the Photosynthetic Efficient Flux graph of a CXA3070 AB 3000K 80 CRI

( PEF = PPF380-780 x RQE380-780 )
(I'm trying hard with inventing weird units and names,huh ? LOL ...:P...)
no PS over 700 nm.JPG
 
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SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Yes I am curious about how the curves compare in absolute output, relative to "each other". As far as flux vs power, that is a darned good question, I suppose flux is more appropriate since it is photons we are after in the end. I understand you need a good rest, you have created a whole new way of visualizing and comparing COBs! :joint:

EDIT, saw the thread THANK YOU SDS!!!

Thank you for clarifying the info about infrared. I figured that LER only pertained to 400-700nm so I was just wondering if something had changed because you said

"I've also redigitized the rel. spectrum of cxa and placed the values missing .. (380-399 nm & 751 to 780 nm ...)"

My understanding of BIOpot Flux is incomplete so my question could be way off :eyesmoke:
 
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stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Yes I am curious about how the curves compare in absolute output, relative to "each other". As far as flux vs power, that is a darned good question, I suppose flux is more appropriate since it is photons we are after in the end. I understand you need a good rest, you have created a whole new way of visualizing and comparing COBs! :joint:

EDIT, saw the thread THANK YOU SDS!!!

Thank you for clarifying the info about infrared. I figured that LER only pertained to 400-700nm so I was just wondering if something had changed because you said

"I've also redigitized the rel. spectrum of cxa and placed the values missing .. (380-399 nm & 751 to 780 nm ...)"

My understanding of BIOpot Flux is incomplete so my question could be way off :eyesmoke:

Well ,actually LER has to be pertained on the range 380-780 ,so the spreadsheet's estimation value ,to be
so close to the official LER value ...

Actually you can check here : http://cvrl.ioo.ucl.ac.uk/index.htm
At the Luminous efficiency functions. ( CIE 1924 Photopic )
Καταγραφή.JPG

The y values of that graph multiplied by 683 and then multiplied with CXA's
W / nm y values will give the lumen output of per nm ....

(for example ...If a led has 1 watt at 557 nm radiant power ,then
in lumens it will be 1 Watt * 683 * 0.99 (y value for 557 nm from the above graph ) ...
= ~683 lm .... The sum of of this equation,for the whole 380-780 nm ,
is the LER ,when total output radiant power is 1 Watt )


BIOpot Flux(shitty name ) = PFE (much better characterization ....:P...)

PF (photon Flux )= umol/sec for range 380-780 nm or 360-800 nm ,or every given wl range
PAR aka PPF (photosynthetic Active Radiation -Photosynthetic Photon Flux )= umol/sec for range 400-700 nm
PEF (photosynthetic Efficient Flux ) = PF x RQE (Action Spectra,McCree1972) = the actual photosynthetic efficient photon flux ,of a light sourse ... (Mr.Flux also uses this ,under another name ... )


Cheers.
 

epicfail

Well-Known Member
@Greengenes707 got his COB tested with a specroradiometer. I overlayed the line from the Cree Data sheet to his results and I couldn't get them to match. This was the closest and the grids don't line up. From this its seems we get more red maybe which would be cool.

cxaspec.jpg

Also whats that over there?
there, at the bottom,
on the left,
Is that UV?

I wonder if they sent him a PDF that could be plotted.
peak 603nm
 
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stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
@Greengenes707 got his COB tested with a specroradiometer. I overlayed the line from the Cree Data sheet to his results and I couldn't get them to match. This was the closest and the grids don't line up. From this its seems we get more red maybe which would be cool.

Also whats that over there?
there, at the bottom,
on the left,
Is that UV?

I wonder if they sent him a PDF that could be plotted.
peak 603nm
A good explanation is this ...

" 2-step / 4 -step McAdam ellipse' ...
Chromaticity Coordinates Bins ...
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
As far as I am concerned, SDS one of the most knowledgeable on RIU about growing LEDs and he is very generous to share his knowledge. Rob333, are you an electrical or lighting engineer? If so please enlighten us with your vast knowledge otherwise please do not troll here.

Thanks for overlaying the graph EF. I was very surprised to see the blue peak at 460nm instead of 450 and I expected the red peak to be closer to 610nm. I think the UV area is just the noise floor of the instrument.
 

DarthBlazeAnthony

Well-Known Member
After three-four sessions of digitizing and recalculating ,yes...
The CXA 3000K ,80 CRI has 14% of it's output power (W ) at the 400-499 nm range ,
44,7 % at the 500-599 nm and the remaining ~ 41,3 % at 600-699 nm range ...

Analytical in 12 "bands" ,four for each wl range :
View attachment 3174701


Blue Range 400-499 nm
-Violet 400-424 nm : 0.37% Φο (W ) / 0,27% PPF (umol/sec )
-Blue 425-449 nm : 3.36% Φο (W ) / 2.57% PPF (umol/sec )
-Light Blue 450-474 nm : 6.25 % Φο (W ) / 4.99% PPF (umol/sec )<= Dom.
-Cyan 475-499 nm : 4.07 % Φο (W ) / 3.44% PPF (umol/sec )

Green Range 500-599 nm
-Turquise 500-524 nm : 7.05 % Φο (W ) / 6.27% PPF (umol/sec )
-Green 525-549 nm : 9.58% Φο (W ) / 8.92% PPF (umol/sec )
-Lime 550-574 nm : 12.39% Φο (W ) / 12.08% PPF (umol/sec )
-Yellow 575-599 nm : 15.64% Φο (W ) / 15.92% PPF (umol/sec )<=Dom.

Red Range 600-699 nm
-Amber 600-624 nm : 16.24% Φο (W ) / 17.21% PPF (umol/sec )<=Dom.
-Red 625-649 nm : 12.75% Φο (W ) / 14.05% PPF (umol/sec )
-Deep Red 650-674 nm : 7.95% Φο (W ) / 9.1% PPF (umol/sec )
-Hyper Red 675-699 nm : 4.36% Φο (W ) / 5.18% PPF (umol/sec )
Is there video link to this software and use?
 

DarthBlazeAnthony

Well-Known Member
If I want to buy the most power efficient COB, cover 4x4 footprint, and at a reasonable price on ebay in your opinion? I saw someone run 5 COB's to cover a 4x4 area at 500 watts.
 
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