Effect of Defoliation on Yield - Skywalker OG indoor scrog

[Uncle Ben]

Still very interested in the outcome though.

The "outcome" has been expressed in a dozen threads as has the stupidity and valid botanical points. This may be new to you, but it's not. Try using the RIU search feature using such keywords as "lollipopping" and "defoliation".

 

[Uncle Ben]

I overvegged so I ha ve too many

I am back on this site for the first time since the format changed and I need to ask for help, I remember you being the answer man and can I ask your advice on something?

I'm listening.....

 

[burgertime2010]

Hey thank you, I had a situation where my available area for flowering was decreased by 30% and decided to put the veg I had waiting in a space that I knew would be crowded. I am not a newbie, I knew this would result and a jungle of medium sized nugs lies beneath a nice even canopy of spears. They will not mature at the same time obviously. What would you do in this situation?

 

[CaretakerDad]

I just plucked this gem from another defoliation thread, enjoy.......

Defoliating doesn't doom the plant. It's used for bonzai to obtain leef reduction and to halt growth, height. While the plant is growing new leave it is not becoming taller.

 

[burgertime2010]

I just plucked this gem from another defoliation thread, enjoy.......

Defoliating doesn't doom the plant. It's used for bonzai to obtain leef reduction and to halt growth, height. While the plant is growing new leave it is not becoming taller.

to mimic a bonsai technique is to miniaturize a plant that you want to grow. That is absurd!!! Leaves are the energy receptors that make buds form. Cut a leaf and stunt that bud. I do not get it

 

[CaretakerDad]

to mimic a bonsai technique is to miniaturize a plant that you want to grow. That is absurd!!! Leaves are the energy receptors that make buds form. Cut a leaf and stunt that bud. I do not get it

EXACTLY !!!!!!!

 

[Uncle Ben]

Hey thank you, I had a situation where my available area for flowering was decreased by 30% and decided to put the veg I had waiting in a space that I knew would be crowded. I am not a newbie, I knew this would result and a jungle of medium sized nugs lies beneath a nice even canopy of spears. They will not mature at the same time obviously. What would you do in this situation?

Just do it. If you're worried about going against the herd..... that cannabis needs 100w/s.f. to perform well, forget that nonsense. Indoors I crammed plants into a small space, they got "38w/s.f." and did fine. Of course we all know the watts/s.f. is a farce. A lot depends on good reflecting panels.

 

[burgertime2010]

EXACTLY !!!!!!!

you want no flowers? Or a bonsai plant for your kitchen? What is your end game.....most people want to have flowers and plenty of them

 

[CaretakerDad]

you want no flowers? Or a bonsai plant for your kitchen? What is your end game.....most people want to have flowers and plenty of them

Is your irony meter broken or are your reading/comprehension skills challenged?

 

[burgertime2010]

Just do it. If you're worried about going against the herd..... that cannabis needs 100w/s.f. to perform well, forget that nonsense. Indoors I crammed plants into a small space, they got "38w/s.f." and did fine. Of course we all know the watts/s.f. is a farce. A lot depends on good reflecting panels.

So I am going to give the plants a flattop, reduce the nutes a tad, and hang another 400w bulb. I have no worries about the herd, I want a bottom growth surge and have to defoliate to get it. I was looking for any tricks because this does not seem like a rare occurance. Thanks amigo.

 

[burgertime2010]

Is your irony meter broken or are your reading/comprehension skills challenged?

In this case....yes.

 

[burgertime2010]

That is irony.

 

[waterdawg]

Around and around we go! Where it will stop no one knows lol

 

[Uncle Ben]

That is irony.

Irony of this place is that most use techniques that actually retard a plant when their dream is to enhance it, push it. Too much light, too little N, too much plant food of the wrong kind, removing the very unit that produces the bud and other important plant tissue i.e. roots, flushing, confining/restricting plants to tents.....the list just goes on.

Bit of wisdom found in another active defoliation thread - "well i don't know the science, I've just proven it doing side by side comparisons."

 

[burgertime2010]

I was in a hydro store a couple days back and it was packed full of newbs, like barely legal status and it really became clear that they knew absolutely nothing and were about spend a lot of money to find that out. There was 3 of us middle aged farmers with a simpler paradigm shaking our heads and smiling just to no longer be addicted to the complex and extreme fiction of what it takes to be good at this. I have found a happy medium....

 

[OscarLaGrouch]

Having a little trouble sorting out your post bit i think youre saying if you flip to flower at the right time instead of letting them overveg then defol is unnecessary. I agree. However there are times I am forced to delay harvest or delay getting plants into flower so by the time I do, they need some pruning and defol to clean them up. I also mainline them.

All plants were started from clone and vegged for three weeks. All plants were topped to the fifth internode. Tops sent to clone tray to root. Both trays contain 18 plants. On 15th day of flower tray A was defoliated of a significant number of mature fan leaves.
Both trays will be chopped on the same day and quantified separately. No extra veg time in either tray.

now really think about this.. you have 12 overgrown plants that you prune back a ton and spend an extra month "defoliating" to achieve proper light
or you have 12 plants that you grew to an appropriate size, then flowered, and didn't need to do any defoliating, just a little LST.

you achieve the harvest one month early. some may argue that they don't care cause they have so many plants in veg, but think that you could actually be flowering those over-vegged plants in time to not have to "defoliate".

I really liked uncle bens 2 or 4 top method. If you do the 4 top method, as the buds dense up, they weigh down outward and allow light in the middle of the plant more.

also wanted to mention, when the oscillating fan wiggles my leaves, there is now light getting to EVERY leaf. When needed, translocation will feed whatever needs it, so i keep as much green leaf on the plant (following a 3-1-2 NPK feed schedule the entire time). The result is maybe a little "less" bud but one whole month quicker, so i see it like almost getting a half of a harvest back

i guess my statement is that the claim to improved yields through defoliating is actually due to extra veg time and defoliation is necessary because you don't have enough light to satisfy the plant, all of this will take longer than it has to and is counter productive. Not that it doesn't "work" but it should be avoided

 

[OscarLaGrouch]

Does my room look more like a lab than a spare bedroom? Does it look less like a REAL lab and more like a spare bedroom?
Yes and yes.

Sorry I guess one persons lab is another's grow room, FYI I do refer to my shed as the lab lol, its not lol. Sorry Oscar but the more you try to defend this very interesting, dare I say experiment! I think (IMO) you take away the original intent. Still very interested in the outcome though. And it has raised my curiosity, to say the least lol, in learning more about why there is so much "passion" in the fight not to pluck!!!!

 

[OscarLaGrouch]

i guess my statement is that the claim to improved yields through defoliating is actually due to extra veg time and defoliation is necessary because you don't have enough light to satisfy the plant, all of this will take longer than it has to and is counter productive. Not that it doesn't "work" but it should be avoided

My hypothesis is not so much that it will increase yields but rather to determine if defol negatively affects yield.

 

[OscarLaGrouch]

I have assurances from a mod that the thread will be purged of the arguments.
That being said, there isnt much to report other than observations and data until harvest etc in July.
Thanks for referring to this as a"well-designed experiment".

Well that was a lot to read through. Thanks for trying to set up a study with actual controls. It seems like a well designed experiment and I look forward to seeing the results. Not so much to reading another month and a half of folks arguing. Props to you for trying to test for yourself and doing so with a thought out experiment!

h

 

[neo12345]

That will surely confirm the right or wrong, after all, there are scholars here who claim RC Clark and Jorge don't know squat...and if these scholars say it, it must be twue.

That is certainly not what I said about Jorge and RC Clarke, I didn't suggest in the slightest that they don't know anything.

You posted a quote and video from Jorge where he says that there is science behind what he is saying about not pulling off leaves, I'm just asking to see this science?

You and others have posted in here that you will only believe peer reviewed scientific papers, so can we see these scientific papers regarding cannabis defoliation that have convinced you that it doesn't work?

With regards to RC Clarke here is the article in question:

If these inhibitor-laden leaves are removed, the plant will proceed to flower, and maturation will be accelerated. Large leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small atrophied floral clusters may begin to develop if they receive more light.

In actuality, few if any of the theories behind defoilatin or de-leafing give any indication of validity. Indeed, leafing possibly serves to defeat its original purpose. Large leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of Cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth sub-stances. They also create shade, but at the same time they are collecting valuable solar energy and producing foods that will be used during the floral development of the plant.

Premature removal of leaves may cause stunting, because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced. As these leaves age and lose their ability to carry on photo-synthesis they turn chloro tie (yellow) and fall to the ground. In humid areas care is taken to remove the yellow or brown leaves, because they might invite attack by fungus.

During chlorosis the plant breaks down substances, such as chlorophylls, and translocates the molecular components to a new growing part of the plant, such as the flowers. Most Cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage, and this trend continues until senescence. It is more efficient for the plant to reuse the energy and various molecular components of existing chlorophyll than to synthesize new chlorophyll at the time of flowering. During flowering this energy is needed to form floral clusters and ripen seeds.

Removing large amounts of leaves will interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. If this metabolic change occurs too late in the season it could interfere with floral development and delay maturation. If any floral inhibitors are removed, the intended effect of accelerating flowering will be counteracted by metabolic upset in the plant.

Removal of shade leaves does facilitate more light reaching the center of the plant, but if there is not enough food energy produced in the leaves, the small internal floral clusters will not grow any larger. Leaf removal
may also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic change.

Marijuana Botany.Clarke

Can you see what I mean, he doesn't seem 100% sure when it comes to specifics about defoliation. I do understand that this article was written in 1981 so there might have been experiments done since then to prove/disprove the claims that he is making.

I also noticed that his first paragraph there is this line "Large leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small atrophied floral clusters may begin to develop if they receive more light.", but you're saying this does not happen as buds don't need light to grow?

I'm genuinely interested in seeing the evidence that has convinced you that defoliation doesn't work, as I find it quite an interesting subject.