"Someone has to clean the toilets"

[Red1966]

I work with some blacks who make 150,000+ a year. Many, if not most, came from these poor neighborhoods. So it is possible to escape. I'll grant you it may better harder than starting from a "higher" station, but it can be done. I have also known people who came from wealth who are in poverty because of bad judgement or just plain wastefulness. That is what makes America great. We aren't restricted in how far we can rise, or fall.

 

[Red1966]

I'll take 1/2 that back. We have a safety net to limit how far we can fall. Even better.

 

[tokeprep]

Now THAT'S some bullshit right there.

Most folks that live in the "ghetto" live there for a reason, and it's not because they are an undiscovered rocket scientist, it's because they're fucking dumb as a bag of hammers. There's always exceptions, but, contrary to popular belief, exceptions are NOT the norm.

I ran into quite a few folks who enlisted to get out of the shithole environment their parent (note the word PARENT, not PARENTS) borne them into, and while nice enough, they were usually on the lower end of the "smart dude" scale.

However, it's not the lack of brains that holds people back as much as it's the lack of anything that even remotely resembles a work ethic. "Opportunity" means nothing to these kind of folks, as they aren't willing to work hard enough to exploit said "opportunity".

What does that have to do with my comment? I never suggested that every person living in the ghetto is an "undiscovered rocket scientist." That some of the greatest minds in human history have come from terrible poverty and broken homes is an indisputable fact. If you had sterilized those parents you would have deprived humanity of those great people. If you did it now you would deprive humanity of people who are not yet great. That was the point.

Most people are poor for the reasons you just identified: they're stupid, they're lazy, they're victims of abuse and broken homes and weren't strong enough to overcome it. That doesn't mean that every poor person or every person from a poor family is destined to do nothing.

Perhaps you just weren't following the discussion.

 

[tokeprep]

No? I say you're wrong.

Fortunately it doesn't even matter, so it doesn't need to be debated. My point was about the automation of productive assets at the expense of labor and to the economic benefit of the owners. The empirical data on productivity and wealth inequality confirm that the owners--the rich people--have captured all of the gains.

You're trying to tell us that those gains don't come at the expense of anyone else. That is absolutely false. If you boosted your bottom line by replacing people people with machines, your gains are at labor's expense. The fact that goods are cheaper for people who still have incomes doesn't mean much to people who lost the great lives they had and cannot be employed.

 

[tokeprep]

And?

Short people are not afforded the opportunities of tall people.
Stupid motherfuckers are not afforded the same opportunity as even the quasi-intelligent.
Fat bastards are not afforded the same opportunity as non-fat bastards.

Are you going to shit on those people as well?

If your school sucks you're generally fucked. It doesn't matter how tall or short or fat you are. Since schools are funded by property taxes, a lot of people in the ghetto are trapped in a cycle that will never end.

Edit: On a personal note, I knew someone who grew up in an almost all black area and went to an almost all black school. His school was a hellhole; his neighborhood was a hellhole. There were shootings in the street all the time and someone once even pointed a gun at him. He didn't think he would ever escape. His school wasn't opening up any opportunities and he thought he was destined to end up dead. He thought life was hopeless, that he had nothing but misery to look forward to and nothing in the world to care about.

He only got out of that situation because his parents got divorced, and he was incredibly lucky. Most people don't get to escape. They're born into hopelessness and hopelessness is all they ever know. The ghetto is a product of frustration, fear, and socialization, not a pure collection of lazy and stupid people.

 

[twostrokenut]

Ever play the game of Monopoly?

Tell me how that ends

Say....isnt washington DC merely a 100 sq mi. diamond shaped? Prolly will end the same way. Out in the boonies it will be quite different.

 

[skunkd0c]

Toilet cleaners get such bad publicity.

What if all the people did not have to be in competition with each other in order to survive lol

 

[twostrokenut]

Individuals in our country are free to move and settle wherever they want. They are free to work anywhere they choose. They are free associate with and live around any culture they please.

Despite this, cultures tend end up as groups of like minded individuals, by choice, as it is comforting to humans to be around similar cultures that share their beliefs and ideas.

witness: detroit

san antonio

washington DC



the same thing happens in every city. it is our legacy as a nation.

 

[twostrokenut]

If your school sucks you're generally fucked. It doesn't matter how tall or short or fat you are. Since schools are funded by property taxes, a lot of people in the ghetto are trapped in a cycle that will never end.

Not true they just buss you across town to equalize this, a fact. If you fail at school, its because you failed to pay attention and apply yourself, not matter the funding for the school. Last I checked, the curriculum is standardized.

 

[Padawanbater2]

Not true they just buss you across town to equalize this, a fact. If you fail at school, its because you failed to pay attention and apply yourself, not matter the funding for the school. Last I checked, the curriculum is standardized.

This is what makes it difficult to discuss these sorts of things, people like you simply refuse to accept information

"All poor people are poor because they failed to pay attention and apply themselves in school"

The sad thing is you don't even realize how out of touch with reality that is

 

[twostrokenut]

This is what makes it difficult to discuss these sorts of things, people like you simply refuse to accept information

"All poor people are poor because they failed to pay attention and apply themselves in school"

The sad thing is you don't even realize how out of touch with reality that is

The facts and actual experience make it difficult not the information, just like a job cleaning toilets....its what you choose to use it for. Want to stay stuck? Stay stuck then.

The point was none really goes to their "neighborhood" school where I am from...they are bussed to "equality". Dont' know if they still are, but we were.

The chances of becoming valedictorian were based on effort and accomplishment, not income....evidenced by the valedictorians of my class.....one from a stable "high society" background....one from a so called "ghetto".

 

[Padawanbater2]

The chances of becoming valedictorian were based on effort and accomplishment, not income...

And how exactly do you think a kid might derive the effort required to become valedictorian? Clearly that method is not very effective as there are a lot more kids stuck in the ghetto than there are competing for top academic spot in high school.

Kids derive the effort needed to succeed in life by having good role models in their lives pushing them to succeed, eating a nutritious diet to keep their body functioning, stable household/family life... These are luxuries you take for granted because they are always available.


To say it's as simple as "just work harder" takes away from the argument. I know people who have spent their entire working careers working much harder than more financially successful people. How do you account for that in this magic all encompassing plan to just "work harder"? The point of the thread is to prove to you people that that is simply not how it works. If all the toilet cleaners simply "worked harder", who would clean the toilets? In our economic system, someone will always have to do the dirty low wage jobs, regardless of how hard they work.

I would say being a janitor or plumber is just as hard as anything else

 

[UncleBuck]

The point was none really goes to their "neighborhood" school where I am from...they are bussed to "equality". Dont' know if they still are, but we were.

You start out in 1954 by saying, “N***er, n***er, n***er.” By 1968 you can’t say “n***er”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff

 

[twostrokenut]

You start out in 1954 by saying, “N***er, n***er, n***er.” By 1968 you can’t say “n***er”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff

Can you speak for yourself and perhaps refrain from your temper tantrum and blatant abuse of the N word?

Can you attribute that quote to someone? The way you write it, it would appear to a guest as those are my quoted words. I am not cool with that.

Check yourself puppet.

 

[UncleBuck]

Can you speak for yourself and perhaps refrain from your temper tantrum and blatant abuse of the N word?

Can you attribute that quote to someone? The way you write it, it would appear to a guest as those are my quoted words. I am not cool with that.

Check yourself puppet.

that's lee atwater describing how the right goes about plucking racist democrats over to their side.

 

[twostrokenut]

And how exactly do you think a kid might derive the effort required to become valedictorian? Clearly that method is not very effective as there are a lot more kids stuck in the ghetto than there are competing for top academic spot in high school.

Clearly there is only two opportunities to become valedictorian and co-valedictorian....regardless of what must be overcome to get there.

Kids derive the effort needed to succeed in life by having good role models in their lives pushing them to succeed, eating a nutritious diet to keep their body functioning, stable household/family life... These are luxuries you take for granted because they are always available.

Too funny. My family made exactly 50 cents too much monthly to qualify for food stamps. We relocated to a better area with jobs. Ever eat potatoes for a month straight? Two months? Three? Had a potato pancake?
Mustard sandwich?

Are you talking about the US? I thought thought we were, my mistake.

To say it's as simple as "just work harder" takes away from the argument. I know people who have spent their entire working careers working much harder than more financially successful people. How do you account for that in this magic all encompassing plan to just "work harder"? The point of the thread is to prove to you people that that is simply not how it works. If all the toilet cleaners simply "worked harder", who would clean the toilets? In our economic system, someone will always have to do the dirty low wage jobs, regardless of how hard they work.

I would say being a janitor or plumber is just as hard as anything else

[youtube]Vq2tDptMHTE[/youtube]

 

[BigNBushy]

And how exactly do you think a kid might derive the effort required to become valedictorian? Clearly that method is not very effective as there are a lot more kids stuck in the ghetto than there are competing for top academic spot in high school.

Kids derive the effort needed to succeed in life by having good role models in their lives pushing them to succeed, eating a nutritious diet to keep their body functioning, stable household/family life... These are luxuries you take for granted because they are always available.


To say it's as simple as "just work harder" takes away from the argument. I know people who have spent their entire working careers working much harder than more financially successful people. How do you account for that in this magic all encompassing plan to just "work harder"? The point of the thread is to prove to you people that that is simply not how it works. If all the toilet cleaners simply "worked harder", who would clean the toilets? In our economic system, someone will always have to do the dirty low wage jobs, regardless of how hard they work.

I would say being a janitor or plumber is just as hard as anything else

Working hard is just one aspect. It's responsibility with the paycheck.

You might say, well, they are responsible with it, a single mom with two kids, her paycheck don't got far.

And you are right.

But somewhere along the line that single mom made a poor choice.

She was a slut.. Got knocked up, and is now economically hampered because of it.

Her husband left her. A bit more sympathy here. But, if she had tried to be an independent person fist, then a wife, she wouldn't be in a mess. Here I wouldn't say she made a bad choice, but could have made better ones.

Her husband died. Makes that $30/month term life policy look more attractive doesn't it?

My point, we make a buch of choices in our life, and many have consequences down steam. Many aren't wrong, but sometimes that is just how the cookie crumbles.

My bad choice was addiction, it's cost me a law degree, two+ years of productivity, and until that point I had a significant savings account and a fairly new car. Luckily I didn't cash in my mutual account, but I haven't added anything to it in 3 years.

If I could have retired at 60, that incident probably pushed me back to 65 or 70, if I don't fuck up with it again.

Other than food stamps, which I did not voluntarily sign up for, I took no government handouts. I said no thanks to a disability check and a basically free place to live. Basically I could have had a free home and over $1k a month in benefits. But that just isn't my goal.

 

[twostrokenut]

that's lee atwater describing how the right goes about plucking racist democrats over to their side.

If I had a clue what you are referencing, it might catch my attention....a link would be helpful....I am simply not self motivated enough to googles anything you are saying here....if it is pertinent to this discussion....please post up.....this ellipises abuse.........is.............for ...................you.

 

[BigNBushy]

If I had a clue what you are referencing, it might catch my attention....a link would be helpful....I am simply not self motivated enough to googles anything you are saying here....if it is pertinent to this discussion....please post up.....this ellipises abuse.........is.............for ...................you.

Goldwater and the southern strategy, circa 1968 I think.

 

[twostrokenut]

You start out in 1954 by saying, “N***er, n***er, n***er.” By 1968 you can’t say “n***er”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff

that's lee atwater describing how the right goes about plucking racist democrats over to their side.

Let us be clear here. Are you saying the quoted above is lee atwater? So why would you reference me as "you" in the same post.

Lets clear this up, I grow weary of your dull and boring and childish bullshit.

This is blatent stupidity and 1 1/2 year old(assuming you were not a late speaking child)logic.

I was not alive in 1954 and have never said those things. I don't even know who lee atwater is...even if he is a republican I am not one of those either.

A true fail on all fronts......how do you suppose you will save face on this one?