Yellow Spots/Root Rot/Ph Drop/Stunted

So it's almost the end of week 3 of veg for these girls, and they have been having a rough time. Here's the setup - RDWC DIY undercurrent under 1000 watt MH in a tent. Sprouted from seed into rockwool then moved the rockwool into hydroton net pots. Feeding with Current Culture line: Veg A B, Roots, and Cal-Mag since i'm running RO.

I have been having a battle with some minor root rot since week 2. I didn't have a chiller when they first went in so they saw water temps of up to 75 F for a week or so, and I started to notice a stink like a locker room when I'd open the containers and rez. Figured from what I've read, it had to be the dreaded pythium. I've had the chiller on for the past week and temps are holding between 65 and 68 now. I did a full flush(the first one) last weekend, and upped the nutes to week 3 strength but i'm still seeing some brown roots and stunted growth. During week 2 I was regularly adding UC Roots every other day at 3ml per gallon to try to fight the minor browning and smell I was seeing in the roots. My ph has been erratic, with a drop overall instead of the usual rise, throughout the day it varys up and down by .1 -.3 dropping an average of .4 overall each day. The ppm has not done much at all the entire grow so far. I've kept on the recommended schedule, 150 - week 1, 200 - week 2, 250 - week 3(current). I have only seen a variation of maybe 5 PPM tops except when upping the nutes, sometimes rising 1 or 2 points in a day instead of dropping. This means they're not eating correct?

Three days ago I added a heavy amount(10ml per gallon) of 3% H2o2 since I wasn't seeing any results from the UC roots alone. Within 2 hours I returned to see light green blotches forming on the lower fan leaves of two of the plants. Overnight they turned into yellow spots, and the leaf tips curled and dried to a crumble. It's been progressively worsening and i'm statrting to see small spots that look similar to cal deficiency on the upper leaves too. I've never heard of H2o2 having an effect like this but it would be a very odd coincidence for something else to pop up that quickly, right after I added it. I have still been adding 3ml per gallon of H2o2 per day since then, it seemed to brighten up the roots and I saw no negative results on any of the others so I figured why not? The spotting has slowly been getting worse on the effected girls, and the growth both from the shoot and the roots seems to have stunted altogether. The whole batch(pineapple express) seems very short with very little root growth for the age. This is my first time with a UC type system so I am not sure what to expect.

The roots don't look all that bad, and the smell seems to be diminishing with the use of H2o2 so I'm continuing with it unless told otherwise. I have another system of the exact same setup that had similar rot issues(not as bad as this one) and they have fully recovered now dropping an immense amount of new root growth, where I see no new root growth in the system in question. I treated it the same way as this one, with H2o2, just without the initial 400ml blast, just 3ml per gallon daily doses. Sorry I know it's a length story, I just don't want to be misdiagnosed and cause more damage. I'm overwhelmed and confused and have searched til my eyes hurt, some DWC guru please bring me a solution to my dilemma!

Main Points:
Yellow spots spreading, leaves dying
Roots slightly brown/smell/very few and no new growth
Plants overall very short and stunted
Ph dropping instead of rising
PPMs not moving

Heres some pics of the spots and roots as they progressed. The last pic is an unaffected one in the same system for comparison, still small and wilty for halfway through week 3 right?

Ph dropped again overnight from 5.86 to 5.64

So i'm thinking I have a nutrient lockout from the rot and ph fluctuation, with multiple deficiencies stemming from that. The leaves are starting to look like an extreme case of mag def to me, very purple stems and seeing a couple yellow spots forming on other plants. Going to do another flush and clean everything with h2o2. Should I refill with 1/4 strength nutes to try to remove the lockout or just RO and UC Roots? and how long until I put full strength back in?

Im just going to let the ph keep dropping and do its thing, once it hits 5.5 ill slowly work back up to 6.2 and alternate weeks like that, sound like a good idea to anyone else?

For one buddy, don't panic and do something you'll regret later. Changing too many things at once is never good. The good news is your plant still has a ton of energy to come back around.

You're gonna go to google and type in live vs sterile res. and research about microbes in your water. Basically there are good ones and bad ones. A bad one is taking over your system right now.

In my experience h2o2 only slows it down. Stalls it from multiplying and buys you some time. But your plant (in my experience) will never really thrive again under this new sterile condition.

When this happens to me i dump in h2o2 to stall the bug, and make a compost tea. It takes 48 hrs to brew. Change the water and dump in the AACT you brewed. The idea being to Outnumber the bad bacteria with good ones. Works EVERY time if brewed properly. Takes about a week to recover though, adding more tea every 3 days.

Good luck bud, msg me if you need more help

Forgot to mention i use the tea on a regular basis (live res) because it also keeps my ph rock steady at 5.8. After tweaking it once or twice after water change due to tap water buffers, it remains wherever it is for weeks at a time. That's the main reason i'm suggesting a live res for you, but it also helps keep your roots pearly white.

If your ppm is at 250ppm, raise it. Get your EC to 1.2mS/cm (600ppm on the 0.50 scale or 840ppm on the 0.70 scale).

Also consider that pH tends to go down over time if the plant is absorbing K, Ca, and/or Mg faster than N or P.

At a low ppm, pH means less, however as there's very low buffering capacity to a low ppm solution.

SnaFuu said:

For one buddy, don't panic and do something you'll regret later. Changing too many things at once is never good. The good news is your plant still has a ton of energy to come back around.

You're gonna go to google and type in live vs sterile res. and research about microbes in your water. Basically there are good ones and bad ones. A bad one is taking over your system right now.

In my experience h2o2 only slows it down. Stalls it from multiplying and buys you some time. But your plant (in my experience) will never really thrive again under this new sterile condition.

When this happens to me i dump in h2o2 to stall the bug, and make a compost tea. It takes 48 hrs to brew. Change the water and dump in the AACT you brewed. The idea being to Outnumber the bad bacteria with good ones. Works EVERY time if brewed properly. Takes about a week to recover though, adding more tea every 3 days.

Good luck bud, msg me if you need more help

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Thanks SnaFuu, it helps to have some reassurance. I've been teetering on that decision between live/sterile for the past few days. The only thing stopping me is the 1 gallon container of Roots that would be wasted, and the chiller I just built, but I suppose I'd rather do that than lose the crop altogether. I've been looking at Heisenberg's Tea recipe - http://forum.grasscity.com/hydroponic-growing/958893-heisenberg-tea-summary-cheap-easy-beneficial-bacteria-cure-root-issues.html do you have any experience with this? Also, I was under the impression it's best to have your ph "swing" do you have any issues with nute deficiencies keeping it right at 5.8? And what ratio H2o2(3%) do you use in the meantime? I'm pretty set on getting this Tea going and getting back on track.

Churchhaze do you any experience with the UC, or RDWC? I only ask because I've heard alot of ppl say to keep ppms low in this type of system because they are more available to the plant or something along those lines. I had the ppm up to 280 in my other system and started to see some burn on the tips of a few girls so I backed it down to 250.

Although I have also read that your ph will drop and ppm will stay steady if they need more food, which is what mine has been doing. Is this the method behind your advice?

Yes, I have over 10 years of experience with DWC. 250ppm is way too low, and the difference between 280ppm and 250ppm is negligible.

I've also never used H2O2 or anything living. As long as you're feeding it right and have adequate dissolved oxygen, the roots don't just start rotting.

motohumpa said:

Churchhaze do you any experience with the UC, or RDWC? I only ask because I've heard alot of ppl say to keep ppms low in this type of system because they are more available to the plant or something along those lines. I had the ppm up to 280 in my other system and started to see some burn on the tips of a few girls so I backed it down to 250.

Although I have also read that your ph will drop and ppm will stay steady if they need more food, which is what mine has been doing. Is this the method behind your advice?

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The root rot set in in the first two weeks before I had the chiller, now I've been fighting to get rid of it. My feed schedule for the nutes recommends 250ppm at week 3 (Cultured Solutions Nutes) so your saying this isn't enough?

Hygrozyme.....Hygrozyme......Hygrozyme.....beneficial enzyme that quite literally eats dead/decomposing matter and turns into plant available nutrients. Also, any time you are in a DWC you should preemptively protect against this type of issue by using something like hydroguard. Made by botanicare, hydroguard is a strain of bacillus that works in a similar way to hygrozyme and 'eats' decaying matter. Hope youve gotten the advice you need to move forward!
Happy growing!

^ Also, you should be anywhere between 500-850ppm by week three, good luck!!!

motohumpa said:

Thanks SnaFuu, it helps to have some reassurance. I've been teetering on that decision between live/sterile for the past few days. The only thing stopping me is the 1 gallon container of Roots that would be wasted, and the chiller I just built, but I suppose I'd rather do that than lose the crop altogether. I've been looking at Heisenberg's Tea recipe - http://forum.grasscity.com/hydroponic-growing/958893-heisenberg-tea-summary-cheap-easy-beneficial-bacteria-cure-root-issues.html do you have any experience with this? Also, I was under the impression it's best to have your ph "swing" do you have any issues with nute deficiencies keeping it right at 5.8? And what ratio H2o2(3%) do you use in the meantime? I'm pretty set on getting this Tea going and getting back on track.

Click to expand...

Yeah I hear ya on the wasted nute thing. To tell you the truth I've got a cupboard full of crap I was duped into buying in the first place. Additives and hormones that would fix one problem, create two more!

Churchhaze seems confident you don't have to treat your water. Some people get lucky like this, and I'm not one of them. I suspect his methods allow for the beneficial bacteria to outnumber the anaerobic right off the bat, never allowing them to take a foothold. Good for him! For the rest of us we have that tea.

First I'll give ya shit for linking another forum, when Heisenberg is right here on rollitup (maybe he's elsewhere too?) but yes I have a lot of experience making the tea. Kind of a pain to make but way more potent than any bottled beneficial or enzyme product. Oh, and for like 1/10 the cost.

SnaFuu said:

Yeah I hear ya on the wasted nute thing. To tell you the truth I've got a cupboard full of crap I was duped into buying in the first place. Additives and hormones that would fix one problem, create two more!

Churchhaze seems confident you don't have to treat your water. Some people get lucky like this, and I'm not one of them. I suspect his methods allow for the beneficial bacteria to outnumber the anaerobic right off the bat, never allowing them to take a foothold. Good for him! For the rest of us we have that tea.

First I'll give ya shit for linking another forum, when Heisenberg is right here on rollitup (maybe he's elsewhere too?) but yes I have a lot of experience making the tea. Kind of a pain to make but way more potent than any bottled beneficial or enzyme product. Oh, and for like 1/10 the cost.

Click to expand...

Didn't even realize on the Heisenberg issue lol but yeah i'm ordering the ingredients for the tea now. Going to treat both systems even though the one is starting to look better, can't hurt right? I'm going to do a flush and h2o2 cleaning tomorrow while I wait for the tea stuff to get here.

Any idea on those leaves? My current thought is that the pythium caused a lockout now causing multiple deficiencies. Seems to be slowly getting worse, should I just clip them and move on? Hoping this flush will help clear the lockout, if not will the bennies help that?

Thanks for the help man, hopefully your saving my grow here!

churchhaze said:

Yes, I have over 10 years of experience with DWC. 250ppm is way too low, and the difference between 280ppm and 250ppm is negligible.

I've also never used H2O2 or anything living. As long as you're feeding it right and have adequate dissolved oxygen, the roots don't just start rotting.

Click to expand...

10 years of experience and you and you still can't get it right? Come on bro....just...just...eeahhhh go clean your room!!!

Yeah the tea is a great idea. Read the first 50 pages of that heisenberg sticky at least, that guy is a guru.

Once you correct the water your new growth will be where you see improvement. Leave the old leaves connected until they fall off themselves. They're still energy for the plant.

Okay, but the tea stuff is bullshit. So is the H2O2. It's all unnecessary.

The problem is that he's running 250ppm. As soon as that's raised, the roots will start looking healthier. Roots don't just randomly start rotting when they're in good condition.

cassinfo said:

10 years of experience and you and you still can't get it right? Come on bro....just...just...eeahhhh go clean your room!!!

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Now that you HAVE pythium, simply raising the ppm isn't going to reverse it. Lol, although I agree that the ppm contributed to it's arrival.

Fuck H2O2.

Yes it will. It will either die, or everything will get better.

When the roots have sufficient calcium and phosphorous, and the right pH, it just stops rotting unless it's already rotted to nothing.

I guess my main point is that people always look to cure the symptoms, while totally ignoring the underlying problems.

UncleReemis said:

Now that you HAVE pythium, simply raising the ppm isn't going to reverse it. Lol, although I agree that the ppm contributed to it's arrival.

Fuck H2O2.

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In my experience, established cultures of bacteria simply do not go away by raising ppm. I know that calcium contributes to cleanliness. pH was never part of the equation in my experience since it remained constant.

"well you must not have had your shit calibrated and dosed correctly"

We'll just agree to disagree xP