Why spend $$$ on a flowering lamp if you have a $ veg lamp?

Old Thcool

Old Thcool

Well-Known Member
Prawn Connery said:
Please, these are just random photos from the internet. Can you not see where the canopy begins and ends and that there is no structure below the canopy? And that if you were to continue vegging these plants beyond their optimum height and volume, you would literally be growing more stem to trim?

I don't know how to explain it any simpler: there is a point of diminishing returns where it doesn't matter how long you veg for - you are simply wasting time and energy on growth that will not develop into full flowers:






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The main advantage to scrog is far less pots to water, also you can move between the plants. I’ve been in many SOG grows where if an emitter gets plugged that plant is inaccessible and is left to die! You have hundreds of little pots everywhere instead of 10 or so. I don’t know? My friends do both, I still prefer bigger plants.
 
Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Are you sure about that?

A lot of SOGs don't use individual pots - they use beds.

And those that do use individual pots can be accessed simply by removing the other pots.

Old Thcool said:
You can’t learn anything from reading! At least I have been told that recently. Research is bullshit!
But your comparison of DWC and Coco were pretty good. However, I I have read up on that already. I will bin all of what I read because it’s all bullshit!
Just me glaring up again!
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Reading is good, and points you in the right direction.

Experience is what gets you over the line.

It's pretty easy to tell when someone is talking from experience and when they are repeating something they have read or been told or haven't actually tried it themselves.
 
Old Thcool

Old Thcool

Well-Known Member
Prawn Connery said:
Are you sure about that?

A lot of SOGs don't use individual pots - they use beds.

And those that do use individual pots can be accessed simply by removing the other pots.


Reading is good, and points you in the right direction.

Experience is what gets you over the line.

It's pretty easy to tell when someone is talking from experience and when they are repeating something they have read or been told or haven't actually tried it themselves.
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Nobody I know uses beds in their basement, always pots, but yea sure you could. Fancy you being up this late? I can’t sleep.
 
Old Thcool

Old Thcool

Well-Known Member
Prawn Connery said:
Are you sure about that?

A lot of SOGs don't use individual pots - they use beds.

And those that do use individual pots can be accessed simply by removing the other pots.


Reading is good, and points you in the right direction.

Experience is what gets you over the line.

It's pretty easy to tell when someone is talking from experience and when they are repeating something they have read or been told or haven't actually tried it themselves.
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My one buddy has a 30x 30 basement there is a 16” path down the center and a sea of pots solid to both walls. Spaghetti tubing everywhere! It’s a mess!
 
Old Thcool

Old Thcool

Well-Known Member
I call him a greedy bastard, why not make them accessible? Well he got busted 3 years ago- didn’t stop him he’s been growing steady ever since lol!
 
Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Old Thcool said:
Nobody I know uses beds in their basement, always pots, but yea sure you could. Fancy you being up this late? I can’t sleep.
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Assumptions, assumptions. I live in a different time zone. :wink:

Old Thcool said:
I don’t like going to his house it’s a heat score! You can smell his house for miles!
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Anyone who grows on that scale without a carbon filter is an idiot. Or perhaps someone's embellishing just a wee bit . . .?
 
Old Thcool

Old Thcool

Well-Known Member
Prawn Connery said:
Assumptions, assumptions. I live in a different time zone. :wink:


Anyone who grows on that scale without a carbon filter is an idiot. Or perhaps someone's embellishing just a wee bit . . .?
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No, he’s too cheap to replace the old crappy ones laying about! lol there is no mistaking his house when you drive by! We live in the country, it simply wouldn’t fly in the city! Hahaha! Seriously like Rasta smoking weed in your face bad! Dirty socks and skunk ass.
 
Old Thcool

Old Thcool

Well-Known Member
Old Thcool said:
No, he’s too cheap to replace the old crappy ones laying about! lol there is no mistaking his house when you drive by! We live in the country, it simply wouldn’t fly in the city! Hahaha! Seriously like Rasta smoking weed in your face bad! Dirty socks and skunk ass.
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I don’t know what the laws are in your country but smell alone is not enough to get a warrant in Canada. Especially now! I mean since the prohibition!
 
PSUAGRO.

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
Prawn Connery said:
Firstly, selective arguments aren't going to win you any favours.

Veg time is a factor in yield UP TO A POINT (it is not a factor in a proper SOG - now ask me all the variables and I will explain why if you don't quite understand).

Additional veg time beyond what is optimal veg time for a particular system (flowering light, space, strain, flowering time and canopy cover age etc) results in NO EXTRA YIELD.

You cannot force an 27 cubic meter plant into an 8 cubic metre flowering room - that is an extreme example of physics, but it demonstrates WITHOUT DOUBT the folly of trying to argue you can veg as long as you like and continue to increase yield.

You cannot. Don't argue otherwise - you look silly.

As for the reservoir argument, it is also tenuous. We're not talking about an entire apartment grow, are we? We're talking about a few plants grown DWC in an an apartment.

Here is a real-world example. BTW, have you done this yourself? Because if you haven't, it sounds to me like you're talking out of school . . .

I started growing in apartments in soil before switching to DWC. My last DWC grow in an apartment consisted of a vertical 600W HPS surrounded by 4x 20 litre buckets filled just over 3/4 (15-16 litres) with nutrient solution. Waste nutrient was dumped at least every two weeks down the toilet. Yield was about 4-5oz per plant (16-20oz per grow).

Not once did any of my buckets leak. Not once did any of my buckets fall over. If any of them ever did - and I am not ruling out the possibility - how much water would have spilled? 15-16 litres.

How much is 15-16 litres? Not enough to completely soak the carpet in the apartment with absolutely ZERO leakage outside.

Unless you are growing recirculating DWC with one main reservoir of 120 litres or more, you are going to have smaller individual reservoirs which are VERY UNLIKELY to start leaking or bursting open all at once.

I think some of you guys come up with these ideas based on what you think happens without actually having any experience.

You have my deepest condolences if you were actually the one in 5 billion people who got busted because your massive DWC system leaked outside your apartment.

I'm sure we all appreciate the heads-up that water leaks can lead to busts, but seriously, have a think about what you wrote for a minute and get back to me. Calling me a 'flat earther" is really a reflection on yourself - because your own argument is based on an ideology, not necessarily a reality.

"What ifs" are not an argument.
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It was a joke prawn.......I seriously do not believe that you're a flat-earther, cmon

You know it's OK to be wrong sometimes? It's frequent for me and it doesn't hurt my internet feelings....try it; )
 
Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
PSUAGRO. said:
It was a joke prawn.......I seriously do not believe that you're a flat-earther, cmon

You know it's OK to be wrong sometimes? It's frequent for me and it doesn't hurt my internet feelings....try it; )
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Fair enough. I was being a bit defensive. What you say is true - DWC leaks in an apartment are certainly a consideration (and no, I didn't grow in my bathroom or laundry - I was also being facetious). But on optimal veg time, it's not my pride getting in the way.

There is good reason why experienced growers veg for a certain time and no more before putting their plants into flower. It's just common sense you can't veg a plant bigger than your flowering space - just as it's common sense you're not going to get better yields if you veg longer when the bottleneck in your system is your lack of flowering light or space.

It's not that hard. The real question is: at which point does extra veg time make no difference to final yield?

Well, most crop farmers already know the answer to that - which is why they space their crops the way they do. Their growth and bloom times are more or less fixed. Their light intensity is more or less fixed. The variable (apart from rain and soil condition) then becomes crop density, because if your crops are too dense, they crowd each other out and yields suffer.

This is basic agriculture.

The principle is the same for indoor growing. If you have a finite grow area and finite light intensity, you need a cut-off point for your veg cycle determined by your plant numbers and genetics. Experience will tell you what that cut-off point is (and it can change depending on ambient temperature and humidity at different times of year).

How could anyone possibly argue that continual veg time leads to ever-increasing yields?

I ask in all seriousness. What is the theory behind this bunk?
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Old Thcool said:
I do agree that a SoG grow would likely outperform a single 3 foot scrogged plant given the same floor space, and over time the SOG will definitely outperform the scrog. I didn’t realize you could begin flowering right from the first true leaves though? I always thought you needed to at least veg it some? I’m not used to growing plants with only a few ounces on them. However, I can only get one crop a year to flower in a greenhouse so they must be big or it’s hardly worth my time.
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https://www.rollitup.org/t/12-12-from-seed.974352/
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Prawn Connery said:
~snip~

How could anyone possibly argue that continual veg time leads to ever-increasing yields?

I ask in all seriousness. What is the theory behind this bunk?
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I suspect it isn't a reasoned thing but more emotional. A young plant gains size just about exponentially. Exponential growth hits us right in our sense of greed.
It takes an overgrown plant or two to bring home the hard reality that indoor lighting is, by and large, an area phenomenon. It upsets the visions of exponential splendor that are oh so tasty.
 
curious2garden

curious2garden

Well-Known Mod
Staff member
Prawn Connery said:
......snip......

How could anyone possibly argue that continual veg time leads to ever-increasing yields?

I ask in all seriousness. What is the theory behind this bunk?
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My theory about this is its a pseudo scientific excuse for their laziness and leaving something in veg to long before flowering. As for me of course I've vegged to long. I simply never lied it was anything but laziness.

Anyway I know this is off topic for an LED forum but could you help me with the basic differences between COB lights and strip lights. I've been looking at the Timber lights and strip lights? Thank you.
 
Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
curious2garden said:
My theory about this is its a pseudo scientific excuse for their laziness and leaving something in veg to long before flowering. As for me of course I've vegged to long. I simply never lied it was anything but laziness.

Anyway I know this is off topic for an LED forum but could you help me with the basic differences between COB lights and strip lights. I've been looking at the Timber lights and strip lights? Thank you.
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Ah, well that may set off another argument in and of itself . . .

I'm realistic enough to admit I'm far from an expert on LED lighting. I know enough to get me into trouble! I've also made a few strip lights and played with boards, and I can really only give my own opinion as to why I went that route.

The main difference between COBs and strips/panels/boards, is that Chip on Board technology groups lots of little LEDs into a concentrated area (the yellow "disc" you see) which offers good light penetration and power, but at the cost of concentrated heat and arguably less efficiency (primarily due to the extra heat).

Strips and boards spread small, individual LEDs over a larger area which has three advantages: more even light coverage, better heat spread, and better efficiency due to that better heat spread (and the efficiency of the mid-powered LEDs themselves, which seem to be the most efficient on the market right now). They don't have the same penetration that comes from a concentrated single light source - think HPS and other single points of light - but they can be spread around the flowering room evenly and run very close to the tops of the plants at lower wattages to further improve efficiency.

I don't have experience with the Timber Grow Lights, and I don't have experience with COBs - which is why it's probaly better to ask someone who has experience with both what they think.

But at face value, the Timbers appear to be well built, reasonably priced and have good heatsinks.

What advantages would COBs have over strips or panels? One area I can think of is if you regularly grow different height plants, or like to grow taller sativas. Having a single point of light (inverse square law) would give better penetration and coverage to deeper canopy (taller) plants - assuming the light is horizontal. (A vertical strip or panel LED would certainly take care of side-lighting for an indoor sativa grow, and is on my to-do list).

However, if you monocrop, or have plants that are fairly even in canopy height, then I would suggest strips or panels/boards would be more efficient at providing even light coverage. But there's probably not as much in it as people think.

I'd like to give you a more definitive answer, but I don't have COBs to compare.

The LED panel plug-and-play eaquivalent to the Timber would probably be the BC Blondes 680W Game Changer here: https://www.bcblondes.com/product-p/bcb-680-3012.htm

They have an online comparison which makes them look good, but always take those with a pinch of salt ;)
 
Puff_Dragon

Puff_Dragon

Well-Known Member
Depending on temps, I'll probably go all Quantum next year.
At the mo (in flower - approx 4 plants) I'm using 400 watts of hps in winter (keeps the tent at 23 / 24 degree's, lights on - I run through the night), perhaps in the last half of flower i'll experiment with upping the watts to 600 (just to see how it effects crop). In summer; I'll be doing a quantum grow for the first time (ordering a light tailored for my 1m2 area). That seems to be the way I'm leaning.

Now, my current mother/veg tent:
I have four 12.5 watt (6500K) led light bulbs (plastic 'bulb' housing removed) in a 4-way splitter fixture. With a clip fan and small extractor fan that makes it 78 watts all in for the mother tent (running 18/6). I'm using a tent designed for one small 'standard' mother plant, but in it I have seven dwarfed (from clone) mother plants (one being a male pollen provider). That leaves just enough space in the tent for 2 glasses of clone cuttings and two (three at a push) small vegging clones (in small 'first' pots).
Dwarfing my mothers has been a fantastic cost saving adventure ..not to mention space saving :)
 

Attachments

Humple

Humple

Well-Known Member
Prawn Connery said:
Ah, well that may set off another argument in and of itself . . .

I'm realistic enough to admit I'm far from an expert on LED lighting. I know enough to get me into trouble! I've also made a few strip lights and played with boards, and I can really only give my own opinion as to why I went that route.

The main difference between COBs and strips/panels/boards, is that Chip on Board technology groups lots of little LEDs into a concentrated area (the yellow "disc" you see) which offers good light penetration and power, but at the cost of concentrated heat and arguably less efficiency (primarily due to the extra heat).

Strips and boards spread small, individual LEDs over a larger area which has three advantages: more even light coverage, better heat spread, and better efficiency due to that better heat spread (and the efficiency of the mid-powered LEDs themselves, which seem to be the most efficient on the market right now). They don't have the same penetration that comes from a concentrated single light source - think HPS and other single points of light - but they can be spread around the flowering room evenly and run very close to the tops of the plants at lower wattages to further improve efficiency.

I don't have experience with the Timber Grow Lights, and I don't have experience with COBs - which is why it's probaly better to ask someone who has experience with both what they think.

But at face value, the Timbers appear to be well built, reasonably priced and have good heatsinks.

What advantages would COBs have over strips or panels? One area I can think of is if you regularly grow different height plants, or like to grow taller sativas. Having a single point of light (inverse square law) would give better penetration and coverage to deeper canopy (taller) plants - assuming the light is horizontal. (A vertical strip or panel LED would certainly take care of side-lighting for an indoor sativa grow, and is on my to-do list).

However, if you monocrop, or have plants that are fairly even in canopy height, then I would suggest strips or panels/boards would be more efficient at providing even light coverage. But there's probably not as much in it as people think.

I'd like to give you a more definitive answer, but I don't have COBs to compare.

The LED panel plug-and-play eaquivalent to the Timber would probably be the BC Blondes 680W Game Changer here: https://www.bcblondes.com/product-p/bcb-680-3012.htm

They have an online comparison which makes them look good, but always take those with a pinch of salt ;)
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You've been growing far, far longer than I, so I normally wouldn't attempt to correct you, but on one issue - and one issue only - I'll give it the old college try...

Penetration is more an effect of diffusion than intensity. Because of this, strips and boards can achieve greater penetration than point-source lighting (alternatively, one or more COBs per square foot can also achieve excellent penetration). The old paradigm is slowly changing, but it is well-entrenched in our minds, so it's not going without a fight. See the article below for support of my assertion.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4559655/
 
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