Why Has No One Killed George Zimmerman?

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
Also, the claim is not that they were competent then. The claim is that since they are now competent, and it is and always was their body, who is better situated to determine if there was or wasn't a violation of her body? The state or the grown woman with full memory of the event?

To say the woman cant determine what to do with her own body, you might as well outlaw abortion.
 

Ace Yonder

Well-Known Member
Well so what? Perhaps I realized stockholm syndrome was a fatal flaw so I changed the scenario in my head. lol Truly I had envisioned random acts of sex, leading to a relationship later in life.

So, to refine the point, since as iron sharpens iron, argument sharpens positions, good catch on your end...

If stockhold syndrome or the like is the pathway to prosecution in the continuous relationship scenario, what about a scenario where...

Girl meets boy, they fuck. She is 15 he is 23. Some years later they reunite and eventually marry.

She decided to take pictures of the first instance of sex. So there is hard proof it happened. Suppose no statute of limitations issues.

Does the man deserve prosecution?

Can she not, at present, retroactively give consent as an adult to his use of her body at that earlier time?
I would say yes he deserves to be prosecuted, as a crime was committed regardless of whether he was caught for it at the time (A tree falling in a forest makes sound regardless of whether someone is there to hear it). As to the last question, I would say no she cannot, I strongly feel that consent is evaluated at the time the event occurred, and subsequent events cannot change whether consent was given or able to be given.
I would actually argue that depending on what she does with those pictures she also could be prosecuted (if she mails them to him that is distribution of child porn, even if they are pictures of her).
Think of this scenario. A woman is raped during a robbery by a masked man. She reports the rape, and they take DNA swabs but can't get a match, and don't find the man. Years later, she meets a man at a party, falls in love, and gets married. Then lets say her sister comes down with leukemia, and needs a bone marrow transplant. Both she and her husband get tested to see if they are a match, and then BOOM his DNA pops up as a match for the DNA collected in the rape kit (I know those systems probably aren't linked yet, but they should be, and this is a hypothetical). Her husband was the masked man (WHO saw that coming??? I should be a fucking screenwriter). Should she be able to grant him immunity for the past rape? Or should he be prosecuted no matter what because they know that a rape was committed and they have his DNA tying him to the case? Remember, the girl may not perjure herself, she cannot say that she had lied and that she had consented at the time (because that's not what happened), she can only say that NOW she retroactively consents. I would argue that the state and validity of the consent at the time of the act is all that matters.
 

Ace Yonder

Well-Known Member
Also, the claim is not that they were competent then. The claim is that since they are now competent, and it is and always was their body, who is better situated to determine if there was or wasn't a violation of her body? The state or the grown woman with full memory of the event?

To say the woman cant determine what to do with her own body, you might as well outlaw abortion.
Totally false equation. The woman can decide what to do with her body. But the child cannot. The law being enforced, and the determination of when a human can grant consent, is based on the findings of many many medical and psychological experts, so yes I would absolutely say that the state is a better judge of the competency of a child than the adult that child grows into. Memory is rarely accurate, and defense mechanisms cause that memory to be further distorted. So that woman is actually NOT a reliable source for whether that child was able to grant consent. That has NOTHING to do with abortion.
 

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
I would say yes he deserves to be prosecuted, as a crime was committed regardless of whether he was caught for it at the time (A tree falling in a forest makes sound regardless of whether someone is there to hear it). As to the last question, I would say no she cannot, I strongly feel that consent is evaluated at the time the event occurred, and subsequent events cannot change whether consent was given or able to be given.
I would actually argue that depending on what she does with those pictures she also could be prosecuted (if she mails them to him that is distribution of child porn, even if they are pictures of her).
Think of this scenario. A woman is raped during a robbery by a masked man. She reports the rape, and they take DNA swabs but can't get a match, and don't find the man. Years later, she meets a man at a party, falls in love, and gets married. Then lets say her sister comes down with leukemia, and needs a bone marrow transplant. Both she and her husband get tested to see if they are a match, and then BOOM his DNA pops up as a match for the DNA collected in the rape kit (I know those systems probably aren't linked yet, but they should be, and this is a hypothetical). Her husband was the masked man (WHO saw that coming??? I should be a fucking screenwriter). Should she be able to grant him immunity for the past rape? Or should he be prosecuted no matter what because they know that a rape was committed and they have his DNA tying him to the case? Remember, the girl may not perjure herself, she cannot say that she had lied and that she had consented at the time (because that's not what happened), she can only say that NOW she retroactively consents. I would argue that the state and validity of the consent at the time of the act is all that matters.
A spouse cannot be compelled to testify against their spouse.

Aside from that, as I said before, that is a rape. Consent after the fact doesn't make it not rape. It is simply excusing it.

This happens all the time in all areas. Ever heard of a kid using his parents credit card against their permission?

Parents call in to question the charges. Cc company decides to prosecute. Investigation reveals it is their child. Parents decide to forego prosecution and pay the debt.

This doesn't mean the card and money wasn't stolen and that the kid isnt a thief. It just isnt prosecutable.

On college campuses every weekend drunk college girls are fucked. That is a total violation. The Grant effective consent after the fact. And the law appears to recognize it.
 

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
Totally false equation. The woman can decide what to do with her body. But the child cannot. The law being enforced, and the determination of when a human can grant consent, is based on the findings of many many medical and psychological experts, so yes I would absolutely say that the state is a better judge of the competency of a child than the adult that child grows into. Memory is rarely accurate, and defense mechanisms cause that memory to be further distorted. So that woman is actually NOT a reliable source for whether that child was able to grant consent. That has NOTHING to do with abortion.
Keep in mind. Were not talking about a child in my scenario. Were talking about a 15 year old. For a child I would agree.

Children, if we must call 15 year olds that, are often emancipated, and can give consent to sex with persons their own age. The 10 year old stuff is gone. Conversation has evolved.

So we have someone who is fully capable of granting legal consent to sex in many situations, but not all.

So The five years pass and they are then together. I would fully pardon the man for the crime against her if she does. To do otherwise is making The state the victim and not the woman. If the woman claims she isn't a victim then how can the state?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I would say yes he deserves to be prosecuted, as a crime was committed regardless of whether he was caught for it at the time (A tree falling in a forest makes sound regardless of whether someone is there to hear it). As to the last question, I would say no she cannot, I strongly feel that consent is evaluated at the time the event occurred, and subsequent events cannot change whether consent was given or able to be given.
I would actually argue that depending on what she does with those pictures she also could be prosecuted (if she mails them to him that is distribution of child porn, even if they are pictures of her).
Think of this scenario. A woman is raped during a robbery by a masked man. She reports the rape, and they take DNA swabs but can't get a match, and don't find the man. Years later, she meets a man at a party, falls in love, and gets married. Then lets say her sister comes down with leukemia, and needs a bone marrow transplant. Both she and her husband get tested to see if they are a match, and then BOOM his DNA pops up as a match for the DNA collected in the rape kit (I know those systems probably aren't linked yet, but they should be, and this is a hypothetical). Her husband was the masked man (WHO saw that coming??? I should be a fucking screenwriter). Should she be able to grant him immunity for the past rape? Or should he be prosecuted no matter what because they know that a rape was committed and they have his DNA tying him to the case? Remember, the girl may not perjure herself, she cannot say that she had lied and that she had consented at the time (because that's not what happened), she can only say that NOW she retroactively consents. I would argue that the state and validity of the consent at the time of the act is all that matters.

Interesting scenario. The involved victim should have the strongest say in the course of action.

If you believe the state must have a role, it becomes hypocritical, since the state itself arises from nonconsensual human interactions which are akin to rape.

Assigning mediator status to the same entity (the state) which uses nonconsensual interactions as a cornerstone of its business model, seems contradictory, since the whole event is ostensibly to examine a nonconsensual human interaction.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Keep in mind. Were not talking about a child in my scenario. Were talking about a 15 year old. For a child I would agree.

Children, if we must call 15 year olds that, are often emancipated, and can give consent to sex with persons their own age. The 10 year old stuff is gone. Conversation has evolved.

So we have someone who is fully capable of granting legal consent to sex in many situations, but not all.

So The five years pass and they are then together. I would fully pardon the man for the crime against her if she does. To do otherwise is making The state the victim and not the woman. If the woman claims she isn't a victim then how can the state?

Exactly. "The State" is not a victim, only individual are or are not.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
you and thickstemz/bignbushy are really teaming up on the pedo defense, eh?
You seem to have a comprehension problem, in addition to a history of teenage incontinence.

I've stated I'm not comfortable with the idea of people engaging other people who have the wherewithal to consent, but a large age difference exists between them. That is an opinion of mine, but my opinion doesn't grant me a right to control anothers life does it ? Does yours?

So, I'm not defending the act itself, I'm defending the idea that if a person who CAN consent is prevented from doing so, the person denying them control over their own body is the aggressor. Can you offer an intelligent rebuttal to that? I doubt it.
 

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
You seem to have a comprehension problem, in addition to a history of teenage incontinence.

I've stated I'm not comfortable with the idea of people engaging other people who have the wherewithal to consent, but a large age difference exists between them. That is an opinion of mine, but my opinion doesn't grant me a right to control anothers life does it ? Does yours?

So, I'm not defending the act itself, I'm defending the idea that if a person who CAN consent is prevented from doing so, the person denying them control over their own body is the aggressor. Can you offer an intelligent rebuttal to that? I doubt it.
Of course he can't. He will just call you a name.
 
Top