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Why are Americans so afraid of Socialism?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by dontexist21, Jun 19, 2009.

  1.  
    dontexist21

    dontexist21 Well-Known Member

    (Please don't turn this thread into a Republican or Democrat bashing party. I created this for thoughtful meaningful discussion, not mindless stupidity.)

    I really want to know why so many people are afraid the idea of Socialism. It seems that every time a politician is even loosely connected to it, its ends up being their political demise. I for one am not calling for a entirely socialist government that only leads to communism, which in the end have shown to fail. But guess what a pure capitalist economy fails to, remember the last time that America had one of those? Around the 1920s, funny how that turned out.

    Why is it so bad that the government provide higher education ensures that a large percentage of Americans can either not afford to pay for it, or will be paying interest on a large loan for the rest of their lives, if they can get the loan. For all of those you think that the money is out there and people just have to stop being lazy and look for it. Well I am sorry you people are living in a fantasy world. It is very hard to get a loan these days with the "cullusterfuck" that the economy has been in, and government aid for the most part is a joke. You can barely pay for most colleges with the amount that you are allowed to take out. I think I know this more then most people since I had to take a semester off because I could no afford to pay for college, might even have to take another semester off. Since I cannot get a loan. Its not as if I am stupid I maintained a 3.4 GPA in BioChemistry, its simply I cannot afford to pay for it. How is it beneficial to the American Society to keep people that are smart and have a drive in life at the bottom of the pack simply because they do not have money.

    Why is it so bad to provide health care for all American's? Is it really the end of society if all people had a right to be able to go to the doctor if they or one of their loved ones were sick. There should be limits to the amount of times someone could go to the doctor. I would never want to see Hospitals over flowing because people are abusing the system. But that does not mean that people should be dieing of things such as the common flu just because they are to poor to afford the health services. Or dieing because they cannot afford to get a check up on a regular basis, and end of sick because of a worsening condition that could have been prevented? Of course there should be regulations, if you smoke cancer sticks and obese because you don't take take of you body. You should not get the same benefits that everyone else does. Sorry but when you are on the governments bill you better be taking care of yourself better.

    I know the argument against this is that people do not want to pay for something that they do use. It is not the governments right to take away their money and use it for something that has no benefit to them. By doing this it will only make people lazy and destroy the fabric of society. Some also might contend that Capitalism is the reason why this country has become so strong, and by adding socialist policies we will only be going against everything that has made this country so great and strong. Policies that have favored business have been the building blocks of our economy.

    While I do agree that policies that have strongly favored business have helped bring this country to where it is today. It is also true that one of the main building blocks for the country was the introduction of free education system. Without it our country would not be where it is today. If you do not educate your citizens in this world business you are at a huge disadvantage. You are only creating a perpetual class of people that are going to suck up the programs such as Medicare and Medicaid. Why not create doctors, lawyers, engineers, instead thieves and bums on the street. We already have a socialist type education system, albeit broken, why no fix it and provide more education for those who want it.

    Its not a well known fact but because there are people that cannot afford health care, the price of health care is actually being driven up and you are actually paying for it in the end. When someone without health care ends up with a life threatening disease that could have been prevented. Guess who pays the bill to save them, you, and its a ALOT more expensive to keep some one from dieing then to keep someone from getting sick. So why not take that extra money and put it in a system that provides everyone with health care, with regulation. Some might argue that it will kill the insurance industry. Why are people caring about the insurance industry, they sure as hell don't care for you. Innovation means that certain industry will become obsolete over time, it happens that is the way for life.

    I am not calling for a completely socialist country but one which takes the ideals from both capitalism and socialism and works them together. Nothing is black and white, but shades of gray.
    So I ask you again, why are Americans so afraid of Socialism?

    (Please don't turn this thread into a Republican or Democrat bashing party. I created this for thoughtful meaningful discussion, not mindless stupidity.)
    heckler73 likes this.
  2.  
    Twistyman

    Twistyman Well-Known Member

    I've never understood that..for me..Health, education should be available to all and paid by all...seeing that in the start of life you need one..and at the end the other..why go broke so someone can get rich from either...... society dictates we educate ourselves and children..so I don't see the reason for opposition..and to benefit off the sick the way the US drs. do is wrong in my eyes... I've had 8 maj. ops..none of it my fault..why should I be left destitute to save my life..its oxymoronic.......
  3.  
    TheBrutalTruth

    TheBrutalTruth Well-Known Member


    The problem is that I'm worked for my money, I haven't stolen it, or asked others to steal it for me like so many Socialists.

    The problems with Socialism is that of corruption, greed, and avarice. In a socialist society you destroy innovation, creativity and the desire to work by destroying the rewards for being innovative, creative and willing to work hard.

    What's the point of trying to get ahead if the government is going to steal anything that you produce?

    What good is it to produce more than just what you would produce working at $8/hr if the government is going to steal everything more than that.

    Then there's the entire moral problem with Socialism/Progressivism being a form of slavery. While you may be content to bow down and call the government master, because of how much "free" stuff it gives you people that oppose Socialism are not. Taxes are stealing, stealing is a form of enslavement, taxes are thus a form of slavery.

    Socialism is an ideology built up on the belief that people have the right to get the government to behave in ways that would lead to them getting theirselves killed, or injured if they had the stupidity and audacity to do it themselves. Namely, insisting that the government steals from others the fruits of their labor to provide you with the fruits of the labor of those people.

    Socialism is akin to a highly organized system of slavery, and is an ideology devoid of moral principle that dehumanizes humanity by reducing everyone to the status of serfs.

    You probably have this wonderful idea of a utopia where every is provided for. The truth, as can be seen through history (USSR) and in the PRC is that you have people that steal more from society than they produce. These people end up in government where there is no effective way to check their corruption, avarice, greed, and abuse of power. While the rest of the population is reduced to near poverty, or impoverished completely.

    Capitalism is a subjective system that rewards everyone based on the value that society believes their services deserve. While there are low-skilled jobs that society does not believe have high value those jobs are primarily unskilled menial positions that given time and fortitude a monkey could be trained to do. Not that I would want a monkey to serve me.

    Socialism is the ideology of those who wish to call the government their master, and scrape behind it eating its shit.

    Capitism is the ideology of those that wish to call no man master except for themselves.

    When it comes down to cooperation, it will be found that Capitalism is built up around the cooperation of individuals through organizations such as sole-proprietorships, partnerships, corporations, and other businesses. It is the only true form of cooperation that can be held up as an example of virtue.

    Socialism relies upon forced cooperation (coercion) and thus can not be held up as being an example of virtue. It is the ideology of those that wish for others to call them master, or do not mind calling others master.

    It was held up during the debate surrounding taxation that slavery deprives man of 2/5ths of what defines him as a man, namely independence and self-responsibility. If you don't mind being a slave, then that is all you will be. Socialism requires mindless slaves serving the masters who are bureaucrats and paper-pushers who reside in offices thinking that they know better than you do how you should live your life, what job you should work, and if you should acquire additional skills.

    It is an ideology that goes against the very principles this nation was founded on such as self-governance, fortitude, self-sacrifice, hardwork, and that people should be free to pursue their interests with out a lot of mindless bureaucrats interfering in their lives.

    Socialism is the ideology of tyrants such as Hitler, Mao, Palpot, Stalin and Lenin. It is an ideology responsible for over 80 Million Deaths.

    It is an ideology built up on dehumanitation, slavery and death.
  4.  
    D^rail

    D^rail Member

    we all need rise up and take care of each other. The whole mindset of people being out for themselves needs to go. I have no problem with paying taxes for education and healthcare. those should be basic human rights.
  5.  
    TheBrutalTruth

    TheBrutalTruth Well-Known Member

    Slavery, and forced servitude.

    People should be free to decide where their interests are, not forced into brainwashing facilities that destroy their individuality and turn out drones that zeigheil the government, and believe in its perfection.

    Healthcare, why should any one be forced to pay for some one who decided to drive drunk and injured themselves?

    Why should any one have to pay for some one that decided to eat so much that the became bloated monstrosities that are suffering from the diseases caused by gluttony and sloth?

    Why should any one be forced to pay for some one that has gotten lung cancer because they were smoking themselves to death?

    I'll make my own decisions, and I'll accept responsibility for my own actions, I'm not some one's chatel to go groveling at their boots like a cur.
  6.  
    Twistyman

    Twistyman Well-Known Member

    Hi BT....



    How about paying for all the heart attacks..strokes caused by money hungry food industries....... nothing to do with sloth or gluttony... because of high profits and the cost of GOOD food 70% of the US/Canada can't afford to eat right and are left with poor alternatives...
    or for the lung transplants from their pollution..thats why they go to third world countries..they can kill there with no penalty ....

    and maybe if the Govt paid for and controlled a few industries maybe some companies might actually stay here and provide jobs..instead of slitting the US work forces throats to make a buck.....

    I'm not saying blanket socialism like you talk about above, I agree thats no way to go..but health and education... you can say its smoking, drinking..but it may have been the pollution that was the "last straw" for that person, the poor food that they can only afford, or they can't afford preemptive health care ..
    that blame can't be assigned to one toxic behavior when the air industries pump are are 10 fold that self chosen risk...

    What about education...look at the US education standards and how they are losing ground to countries that pay or offer cheap ed.

    I'm just lucky ..I was hit by a drunk driver..I sued him... and have had 8 major ops since and it cost 0..why should I have to use the $$ I got from suing to fix myself.... even now everything from Rx to transport is paid and was... since 1975 when I was hit..how long would I have been able (even with ins.) to cont. w/out free care..
    and as sure as God made little green apple..everyone will get sick and need care...usually at the latter stages in their life..why should they end up eating cat food to pay a rich Dr.
    :joint:
  7.  
    ilkhan

    ilkhan Well-Known Member

    And that is what is the matter with this country.
    Everyone thinks they have a "right" to this and that.
    Well if you have to point a gun at someone in order,
    to secure that "right" your part of the problem.

    Not to mention any of the many other problems with socialism.
    *For instance Socialism does not know how much to charge for services.
    This may not sound like a big deal, but it is.
    *Socialism 'theorizes' about some half ass 'moral evolution of man.'
    Ask MedMan he will tell you all about it.
  8.  
    CrackerJax

    CrackerJax New Member

    The problem with Socialism is....that eventually they run out of other ppl's money.
    TheBrutalTruth likes this.
  9.  
    Twistyman

    Twistyman Well-Known Member

    Isn't it "We the people"... not "You're on your own people".......
    you're a hard working American who's kid doesn't deserve Harvard or Yale....
  10.  
    ilkhan

    ilkhan Well-Known Member

    Look I'm not saying your average Socialist.
    Is a bad person, I think they're hearts are in the right place.
    Its just Socialism is force and violence and they don't see that.
    To them its just the right amount of oppression.
    Just the right amount of force applyed by liberal politicians,
    to get more out of the system then they put in.
    I don't want any authority applying force to anyone.
    Thats just me though.

    Last time I checked school in the US was free up till high school
    And it is a piss poor substitute for any kind of real education, IMO.
  11.  
    dontexist21

    dontexist21 Well-Known Member

    You do pay for it already, your tax dollars pays for some one that could have payed had preventative health care to keep them healthy, to then keep them alive beacuse they ended up with a disease. Which cost ALOT more. You also pay for people to be on wellfare that could have gotten a education and give back to the society. Why not use that money to pay for a better system AND save money. By your reasoning we should get have only private firefighters and police. We should also get rid of public schools, and create a class of uneducated dependent citizens. Lets see how far our country goes with that. Sorry to burst your bubble but when you DONT educate the people that is when they become drones. Go to a 3rd world country in Africa where the people are uneducated, and the dictators can tell them lies to mold them into what ever they want. I am not saying that we should pump more money into the system, but we should use the money in a better way. There are plenty of ways to save money, when you make the system actually work. The current system of private isurance does not work and has not worked for decades. FIY I am not a socialist, I believe in business, I just believe that there are certain things that should be provided to increase the way of life all people, and to reduce spending. When the current system does not work it is time for a change.
  12.  
    Twistyman

    Twistyman Well-Known Member

    I've seen both sides on the health front.. my dad came here from UK..he was a landowner who the brit. govt put german POW's to work his farm..very well to do... he came here rich... my mom had to have a lung removed here in 1966 before medicare...they like now charged for everything down to the toilet paper.. 6 months at $365.00 per day, just the room...
    cost my dad $100,000.. ruining him........
  13.  
    CrackerJax

    CrackerJax New Member

    yes well, anecdotal evidence is exactly that....anecdotal.

    The ONLY reason why Europe looks REMOTELY like a success is because it is powered by the GIGANTIC capitalist engine called the US. What we are doing to ourselves is making Europe VERY nervous. They understand it, you should to.
  14.  
    dontexist21

    dontexist21 Well-Known Member


    I believe that socialist and capitalist policies can work with each other. When you believe strictly in one system you are headed for disaster. There is a difference between communism and socialism, USSR was communist, and what you described was communism. Some people forget that.
  15.  
    CrackerJax

    CrackerJax New Member

    We already have plenty of socialism. Just look at our SHINING publik skool system. Just look at our SHINING Medicare and Medicaid.
  16.  
    Twistyman

    Twistyman Well-Known Member

    There are risks and faults with both... but I'd be more worried about the disappearing middle class and the fact that at this rate they'll only be those with..and those w/out... then the fun WILL begin...because then paying for others may become fighting those others off as they riot their asses off.....


  17.  
    Twistyman

    Twistyman Well-Known Member

    Health
    Best Countries For Health Care

    Among seven nations surveyed, the U.S. ranks lowest in patient satisfaction with overall medical care

    By Catherine Arnst

    U.S. politicians often crow that the U.S. health-care system is the best in the world. Patients appear to disagree. Earlier this year, the non-profit Commonwealth Fund surveyed 12,000 adults in seven countries, all of which except the U.S. have universal medical coverage. One-third of those surveyed in the U.S. said their national health-care system has to be rebuilt completely, a significantly higher percentage than in any other country surveyed. The U.S. system ranked dead last when patients were asked if only minor changes were needed, and a higher percentage of U.S. respondents -- 30% -- said they had paid more than $1,000 in out-of-pocket medical expenses in the past year. For a summary of responses from the survey, published in the Nov. 1 issue of Health Affairs, keep reading:


  18.  
    CrackerJax

    CrackerJax New Member

    Every incumbent needs to be turned OUT!!! Every ONE!! I don't care what party they belong to...EVERY ONE!!!
  19.  
    CrackerJax

    CrackerJax New Member

    Hey twisty, do a search on population growth. There is a very very scary connection. Europe is disappearing.
  20.  
    dontexist21

    dontexist21 Well-Known Member

    All of which need to be fixed, I went to a inner city public school I believe I go a decent education. Try getting the same education in another country such as Haiti, you will appreciate the system that we have now. The system is flawed but works to a extent. Another problem is the students mentality on the future. Many do not see the point of school when they know they will be making the same amount of money if they just went into the work force knowing they cannot afford college. I went to school with plenty of people like this, all bright and capable, just did not have the resources. Medicare and Medicaid were NEVER supposed to be used in the way that we use it now when it was conceived.

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