Who Was Jesus? What Did He Teach? Letting His Words Do The Talking!

crackerboy

crackerboy

Active Member
Tym said:
Another Logical Fallacy.
Argumentum ad populum

From Iron Chariots Wiki

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Argumentum ad populum ("argument from popular appeal", "appeal to the majority") is a logical fallacy whereby a proposition is claimed to be true because it is believed by large numbers of people.
Contents

[hide]



[edit]
Examples




[edit]
Discussion

Argumentum ad populum comes in two varieties:


  1. The first is to argue from sheer numbers: "Everyone knows X, so X must be true". This argument is appealing because in many cases, what "everyone knows" is true: the Sun rises in the east, not the south; grass is green; and George Washington was the first President of the United States. This is effective because it pressures people to be "normal". People have a desire to be like their peers. Thus tactics involving alienation are often used to bully people into submission, this is often a sign of a bad argument.
  2. The second variety is "snob appeal": A proposition is claimed to be true because it is believed by an elite or distinguished group of people. This argument often appears in advertising, (e.g., "Z Cola: The official soft drink of the Big-Time Sports Event").

[edit]
Counter-apologetics

Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy because the fact that many people believe something does not make it true. For many years, most people believed that the Earth was the center and most important feature of the universe. Millions of people believe that astrology works. Neither is true.
One special case is that in which a statement is said to be true because it is believed by most of the experts in the field (9 out of 10 dentists recommend Brand X toothpaste!). For example, if most astronomers say that the Earth revolves around the Sun instead of the other way around, then that is very likely to be true. In this case, however, we are trusting the judgment of people who have carefully studied the matter. In effect, we are trusting that the experts have reached their conclusions through valid arguments based on careful observation, so there is no need for us to research the matter ourselves. This type of argument is often reliable, but not always. After all, scientific knowledge is never perfect and complete. However, for most "mature" scientific fields, the likelihood of a complete reversal of views — such as moving the Earth from the center of the universe to the outskirts of one unremarkable galaxy among millions — is incredibly, and ever increasingly, small.
[edit]
See also



Click to expand...

I can do that too.

Denial

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For the politics of science/history and public policy, see Denialism. For other uses, see Denial (disambiguation).


Denial is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true
 
upthearsenal

upthearsenal

Well-Known Member
Denial? Denial is NOT rejecting another's faith in god, denial is rejecting facts like the definition says... religion is based on FAITH not facts, we all know that.

I think he missed your point tym :roll:
 
crackerboy

crackerboy

Active Member
upthearsenal said:
Denial? Denial is NOT rejecting another's faith in god, denial is rejecting facts like the definition says... religion is based on FAITH not facts, we all know that.

I think he missed your point tym :roll:
Click to expand...

The fact part was that more than 80% of the world population says they have experienced God in some way or another. That my friend is a FACT!!!
 
upthearsenal

upthearsenal

Well-Known Member
Like I said I think you missed tym's point.. a fact isn't a fact because the majority believe it... So then what, when people thought the world was flat, it was, but the when they realized it wasn't... it wasn't? It makes not sense man.. facts are based on viable evidence and are indisputable, simply put.
 
Tym

Tym

Well-Known Member
crackerboy said:
The fact part was that more than 80% of the world population says they have experienced God in some way or another. That my friend is a FACT!!!
Click to expand...
Lol, wow dude.. Did you even read my post? Obviously not.. I never denied the fact that over %80 of the population of the world believes in some sort of god..
Read the post man, you committed a logical fallacy. It makes no difference if it was %99.9 of the population.

Try again, I know you can do better..
 
Tym

Tym

Well-Known Member
upthearsenal said:
Denial? Denial is NOT rejecting another's faith in god, denial is rejecting facts like the definition says... religion is based on FAITH not facts, we all know that.

I think he missed your point tym :roll:
Click to expand...
Yup. As per usual :wall:

I refuse to accept that he's just not intelligent enough to get it. He's compartmentalizing his rational thought from his religion.. It's fairly obvious. He's just got to break out of his box..

It's ok to question your beliefs dude. If it's true, surely it could withstand some honest criticism.. If it can't, it's obviously false.. We do this every day in other circumstances. Someone wants to sell you a bridge, you think about it critically and come to the conclusion that he most likely doesn't have a bridge and is just trying to scam you. Religion is no different, you just have to get past the mental block..
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
crackerboy said:
Do I need to re-post the definition of denial again?
Click to expand...
Say you have a group of 20 people. Everyone is shown a red card, then asked what color card they believe they were shown was. 15 people answer "blue". Does that make the card blue and the remaining 5 people wrong?

This is why your example of "well most people believe it, so that makes it true" is a logical fallacy. It wasn't pointed out by Tym because he felt like being an asshole. You need to understand, in the realm of logic, there are rules that need to be followed, otherwise the train stops dead in it's tracks.

Thinking is easy. Thinking logically is what's hard.
 
Tym

Tym

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
Say you have a group of 20 people. Everyone is shown a red card, then asked what color card they believe they were shown was. 15 people answer "blue". Does that make the card blue and the remaining 5 people wrong?

This is why your example of "well most people believe it, so that makes it true" is a logical fallacy. It wasn't pointed out by Tym because he felt like being an asshole. You need to understand, in the realm of logic, there are rules that need to be followed, otherwise the train stops dead in it's tracks.

Thinking is easy. Thinking logically is what's hard.
Click to expand...
I'll admit I can be an asshole, but I did more than point out why it was wrong. Here's an exact copy of my reply.
He commits so many logical fallacies I just cut and paste from iron chariots wiki..

Originally Posted by crackerboy
80% of the worlds population says they have experienced God in some way or another. So that is all the testing I need. I also experience the presence of God on a regular basis. You are the 20% minority that refuses to accept it. Maybe your the one that is blinded to the facts.
Another Logical Fallacy.
Argumentum ad populum

From Iron Chariots Wiki

(Redirected from Ad populum)
Jump to: navigation, search
Argumentum ad populum ("argument from popular appeal", "appeal to the majority") is a logical fallacy whereby a proposition is claimed to be true because it is believed by large numbers of people.
Contents

[hide]

[edit]
Examples


[edit]
Discussion

Argumentum ad populum comes in two varieties:

  1. The first is to argue from sheer numbers: "Everyone knows X, so X must be true". This argument is appealing because in many cases, what "everyone knows" is true: the Sun rises in the east, not the south; grass is green; and George Washington was the first President of the United States. This is effective because it pressures people to be "normal". People have a desire to be like their peers. Thus tactics involving alienation are often used to bully people into submission, this is often a sign of a bad argument.
  2. The second variety is "snob appeal": A proposition is claimed to be true because it is believed by an elite or distinguished group of people. This argument often appears in advertising, (e.g., "Z Cola: The official soft drink of the Big-Time Sports Event").
[edit]
Counter-apologetics

Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy because the fact that many people believe something does not make it true. For many years, most people believed that the Earth was the center and most important feature of the universe. Millions of people believe that astrology works. Neither is true.
One special case is that in which a statement is said to be true because it is believed by most of the experts in the field (9 out of 10 dentists recommend Brand X toothpaste!). For example, if most astronomers say that the Earth revolves around the Sun instead of the other way around, then that is very likely to be true. In this case, however, we are trusting the judgment of people who have carefully studied the matter. In effect, we are trusting that the experts have reached their conclusions through valid arguments based on careful observation, so there is no need for us to research the matter ourselves. This type of argument is often reliable, but not always. After all, scientific knowledge is never perfect and complete. However, for most "mature" scientific fields, the likelihood of a complete reversal of views — such as moving the Earth from the center of the universe to the outskirts of one unremarkable galaxy among millions — is incredibly, and ever increasingly, small.
[edit]
See also


 
crackerboy

crackerboy

Active Member
Padawanbater2 said:
Say you have a group of 20 people. Everyone is shown a red card, then asked what color card they believe they were shown was. 15 people answer "blue". Does that make the card blue and the remaining 5 people wrong?

This is why your example of "well most people believe it, so that makes it true" is a logical fallacy. It wasn't pointed out by Tym because he felt like being an asshole. You need to understand, in the realm of logic, there are rules that need to be followed, otherwise the train stops dead in it's tracks.

Thinking is easy. Thinking logically is what's hard.
Click to expand...

Look I totally get what a fallacy is. You are still ignoring the fact that is an enormous amount of people to be just a coincidence. All these people are not delusional. He is real.
 
Tym

Tym

Well-Known Member
crackerboy said:
Look I totally get what a fallacy is. You are still ignoring the fact that is an enormous amount of people to be just a coincidence. All these people are not delusional. He is real.
Click to expand...
Lol see what I mean?
To him, the card is blue.
The earth was flat, now it's round.
The sun used to go around the earth, now the earth goes around the sun.
It is hopeless to try and reason with him, I'll just stick to proving him wrong over and over again so other people can learn from his mistakes.
 
upthearsenal

upthearsenal

Well-Known Member
Your "He" is not supported by that 80%, but maybe there is a type of god, we don't know. Look, it's not like there are facts that anyone and everyone can look at and agree. With that in mind, there has to be other reasons why people feel there is a god, but there are no real facts that prove a god exists.
 
crackerboy

crackerboy

Active Member
Tym said:
Lol see what I mean?
To him, the card is blue.
The earth was flat, now it's round.
The sun used to go around the earth, now the earth goes around the sun.
It is hopeless to try and reason with him, I'll just stick to proving him wrong over and over again so other people can learn from his mistakes.
Click to expand...

No really just address that one issue. Why is it that the majority of the people on earth believe in a God? You won't address it because you can't come up with a logical reason. Just because you don't understand it does not make it wrong.
 
upthearsenal

upthearsenal

Well-Known Member
Just because one can't answer the question of why so many people believe is irrelevant and does nothing for your argument... Why do they believe? Because they have faith, and that's it...

Faith: strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

If you want your question to mean anything, first prove god and his existence to an indisputable measure, to make that fact/percentage significant.
 
Tym

Tym

Well-Known Member
crackerboy said:
No really just address that one issue. Why is it that the majority of the people on earth believe in a God? You won't address it because you can't come up with a logical reason. Just because you don't understand it does not make it wrong.
Click to expand...
Cause you never asked me to address it, you asserted it. You made a statement, then never asked me a question.. Now that you have, I will answer.

First of all, even if I can't come up with a logical reason, doesn't mean you can. Also it doesn't mean your answer is right. It's called a false dichotomy, another logical fallacy.
But it just turns out I do have a logical reason.

%80 of people believe in a god, because they want it to be true.

But even if I said "I don't know" it does not make you right, or your answer any more valid..
 
crackerboy

crackerboy

Active Member
Look I don't really care about making arguments on this point. As you said i made a statement. I just want all of you to ask yourselves the question of why is it that you are one of the few in this world that don't have that connection. Are you the elite or the deprived?
 
Tym

Tym

Well-Known Member
crackerboy said:
Look I don't really care about making arguments on this point. As you said i made a statement. I just want all of you to ask yourselves the question of why is it that you are one of the few in this world that don't have that connection. Are you the elite or the deprived?
Click to expand...
Then why ask? Anyways.. Do you honestly think people like me have come to this conclusion without asking questions like that? The reason is, someone makes a claim. There is no evidence for the claim. Do you believe it?
I'm not talking about religion, I'm not talking about god, I'm not talking about anything specific.

There is a claim, no evidence exists for this claim, do you believe it?
 
crackerboy

crackerboy

Active Member
Ok well if the person that made that claim also gave me a book. And when I read that book strange and miraculous things began to happen to me, then yes I would begin to believe. But wait, the more I believed in what is said the more began to work within me. So yes if all these things where actually happening to me than I would believe. Oh wait, that is what has happened to me.
 
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