Which is more preferable?

jjf1978

jjf1978

Well-Known Member
Build a rich organic soil so that the plant only needs to be watered from start to finish or to use a pre-made store bought potting soil with 0 nutrients as a medium and water with an organic tea every 3rd watering?

I ask because I am having a HARD time finding all the elements of a good organic soil locally purchasable with cash (I do not want to buy any supplies over the internet). So I want to just buy a good store bought soil mix and suppliment it with a tea. Without the addition of tea would a store bought soil medium be considered "organic"? If not, would adding the tea (tea of sea bird, bat guano etc.. thats even if I can find this stuff ) introduce the proper microbes?

Argh basically what I'm trying to say is I want to START growing organically because I just hate adding salt based chemicals to my growing medium. The herb tastes fine but still, I just want it to be organic and "healthy" as possible. Thanks for your help :leaf:
 
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Wetdog

Well-Known Member
Out of these, what CAN'T you find locally?
Peat Moss
Perlite
Blood meal
Bone meal
Kelp meal
Worm Castings
Powdered Dolomite Lime

Wet
 
jjf1978

jjf1978

Well-Known Member
Wetdog said:
Out of these, what CAN'T you find locally?
Peat Moss
Perlite
Blood meal
Bone meal
Kelp meal
Worm Castings
Powdered Dolomite Lime

Wet
Click to expand...
Kelp meal
Worm castings

Dolomite lime was on the list but I just found it at a local hardware store.
Cannot find worm castings for the life of me or the kelp meal. Any substitutes? Did find mushroom compost in place of the castings though.
 
D

dankboss

Member
You can substitute any liquid seaweed product (liquid kelp basically) for the kelp meal. You would just have to dilute it and water it into your soil. A common brand is Maxicrop.

Worm castings are very common. Have you checked your hardware store's gardening section? Or local nurseries? If not you can substitute with Black Kow, a cow manure compost that has 0.5-0.5-0.5 NPK. Not as good as worm castings, but acceptable. The best worm castings are homemade however, as commercial worms are fed cardboard and paper, which leads to a very bland diet and bland castings. Worms in a vermicompost bin are fed....whatever you feed them! You can add bread, banana peels, citrus peels....basically any organic matter EXCEPT for dairy and meat products. Also, do not add human or cat/dog shit as these may contain pathogens that are detrimental.

Hope this helps and GL.

PS: If you can't find kelp meal/liquid kelp/seaweed extract, you should try looking for fish hydrolysate (or fish emulsion if you can't find hydrolysate.) Alaska fish emulsion is available at my local HomeDepot and Lowes.
 
jjf1978

jjf1978

Well-Known Member
dankboss said:
You can substitute any liquid seaweed product (liquid kelp basically) for the kelp meal. You would just have to dilute it and water it into your soil. A common brand is Maxicrop.

Worm castings are very common. Have you checked your hardware store's gardening section? Or local nurseries? If not you can substitute with Black Kow, a cow manure compost that has 0.5-0.5-0.5 NPK. Not as good as worm castings, but acceptable. The best worm castings are homemade however, as commercial worms are fed cardboard and paper, which leads to a very bland diet and bland castings. Worms in a vermicompost bin are fed....whatever you feed them! You can add bread, banana peels, citrus peels....basically any organic matter EXCEPT for dairy and meat products. Also, do not add human or cat/dog shit as these may contain pathogens that are detrimental.

Hope this helps and GL.

PS: If you can't find kelp meal/liquid kelp/seaweed extract, you should try looking for fish hydrolysate (or fish emulsion if you can't find hydrolysate.) Alaska fish emulsion is available at my local HomeDepot and Lowes.
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Is it a red flag if you order 10 lbs of kelp meal fertilizer to your house? Found some on ebay but weary...I do have a ton of tomato/straberry plants growing on my deck. :)
 
M

madodah

Well-Known Member
jjf1978 said:
Is it a red flag if you order 10 lbs of kelp meal fertilizer to your house? Found some on ebay but weary...I do have a ton of tomato/straberry plants growing on my deck. :)
Click to expand...
No. There are more organic vegetable gardeners out there than you can imagine.

Most progressive vendors have a zip code feature which shows where their products are available. Here's one from Dr. Earth, I use their products and they're commonly available even in the small town near me.
 
jjf1978

jjf1978

Well-Known Member
madodah said:
No. There are more organic vegetable gardeners out there than you can imagine.

Most progressive vendors have a zip code feature which shows where their products are available. Here's one from Dr. Earth, I use their products and they're commonly available even in the small town near me.
Click to expand...
That is true I guess, if it was such a red flag the companies would be out of business eh? I am also in a small town, gonna check out Dr. Earth hopefully be able to procure all my supplies. Thanks again.
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
jjf1978 said:
Is it a red flag if you order 10 lbs of kelp meal fertilizer to your house? Found some on ebay but weary...I do have a ton of tomato/straberry plants growing on my deck. :)
Click to expand...
I use Kelp meal on my veggies also.:weed:

Ask the places that had the bone and blood meal if they can order it. Most of the company's that supply bone and blood also have kelp. Doesn't mean the HD, Lowers, garden shop ordered any. If there is call for it they might.

Espoma makes kelp meal for instance, just don't see it a lot with their other products.
ebay will work if you can catch a break on shipping.

Wet
 
jjf1978

jjf1978

Well-Known Member
Wetdog said:
I use Kelp meal on my veggies also.:weed:

Ask the places that had the bone and blood meal if they can order it. Most of the company's that supply bone and blood also have kelp. Doesn't mean the HD, Lowers, garden shop ordered any. If there is call for it they might.

Espoma makes kelp meal for instance, just don't see it a lot with their other products.
ebay will work if you can catch a break on shipping.

Wet
Click to expand...
I did see that Espoma kelp meal online and got excited when I saw the bag in my local hardware place and then as I read the labels no kelp meal :( I'll get my hands on all the ingredients and it'll be worth the trouble to do it right!
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
Ask the hardware guy if he'll order it. Out of 4 places in my area that carry Espoma, only 1 has the kelp meal.

Wet
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
Yeah, that is not a kelp substitute. My kelp meal is 1-0-2.

That is a more complete type of nute than just K.

Wet
 
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madodah

Well-Known Member
jjf1978 said:
Ok so I was able to find fox farm marine cuisine, but didnt buy it because I'm not sure if its a substitute for the kelp meal. Kelp is supposed to be for PK?

View attachment 923584
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If you're growing organic be cautious about using Fox Farm products as most are not organic. From the FF website, here's the product description of Marine Cuisine: "[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Marine Cuisine® is a powerful all-purpose fertilizer that blends fine ocean-based ingredients like crab meal, shrimp meal, seabird guano, and kelp, with low-sodium mineral plant foods[/FONT]".

Low-sodium mineral plant food is advertising hype for salt based, slow release chemicals. They destroy microbe life and create a dependency for ongoing chemical feeding.
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
dankboss said:
You can substitute any liquid seaweed product (liquid kelp basically) for the kelp meal. You would just have to dilute it and water it into your soil. A common brand is Maxicrop.

Worm castings are very common. Have you checked your hardware store's gardening section? Or local nurseries? If not you can substitute with Black Kow, a cow manure compost that has 0.5-0.5-0.5 NPK. Not as good as worm castings, but acceptable. The best worm castings are homemade however, as commercial worms are fed cardboard and paper, which leads to a very bland diet and bland castings. Worms in a vermicompost bin are fed....whatever you feed them! You can add bread, banana peels, citrus peels....basically any organic matter EXCEPT for dairy and meat products. Also, do not add human or cat/dog shit as these may contain pathogens that are detrimental.

Hope this helps and GL.

PS: If you can't find kelp meal/liquid kelp/seaweed extract, you should try looking for fish hydrolysate (or fish emulsion if you can't find hydrolysate.) Alaska fish emulsion is available at my local HomeDepot and Lowes.
Click to expand...
Yeah, That ^^^^^

I'd get a 4 or 5lb bag of kelp meal off the bay. You don't use that much, and a 10# bag will eat you up in shipping.

I'm doing the BLACK KOW route in my veggie mix. I have 2 worm bins, but they are only enough for my MJ plants. I will use close to 75 gallons of mix for my veggies and perhaps 20-30 gallons for my mj.

Blood and Bone meal work just fine for N and P. Guano would be great, but isn't available locally and paying big $$$$ to ship shit just goes against the grain.

But just about ALL organic nutes are light in K, so you really have to have the kelp or some sort of seaweed for that K. Keep looking locally, but buy online if you must.

Wet
 
jjf1978

jjf1978

Well-Known Member
madodah said:
If you're growing organic be cautious about using Fox Farm products as most are not organic. From the FF website, here's the product description of Marine Cuisine: "[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Marine Cuisine® is a powerful all-purpose fertilizer that blends fine ocean-based ingredients like crab meal, shrimp meal, seabird guano, and kelp, with low-sodium mineral plant foods[/FONT]".

Low-sodium mineral plant food is advertising hype for salt based, slow release chemicals. They destroy microbe life and create a dependency for ongoing chemical feeding.
Click to expand...
I bet its the same for the Miracle Grow Blood Meal right? I read the bag didnt see anything about time release until you read the back very small print 12% time released nitrogen. That leaves me needing the kelp/blood meal still hehe. I got the Fox Farms happy frog steamed bone meal - I didn't read anything about it being time released I believe it is organic.

Wetdog said:
Yeah, That ^^^^^

I'd get a 4 or 5lb bag of kelp meal off the bay. You don't use that much, and a 10# bag will eat you up in shipping.

I'm doing the BLACK KOW route in my veggie mix. I have 2 worm bins, but they are only enough for my MJ plants. I will use close to 75 gallons of mix for my veggies and perhaps 20-30 gallons for my mj.

Blood and Bone meal work just fine for N and P. Guano would be great, but isn't available locally and paying big $$$$ to ship shit just goes against the grain.

But just about ALL organic nutes are light in K, so you really have to have the kelp or some sort of seaweed for that K. Keep looking locally, but buy online if you must.

Wet
Click to expand...
So far I've been able to find mexican/jamaican bat guano and peruvian sea bird guano. I bought 'em all just cause they are so hard to find lol. This still doesn't help me with my K dilemma so I am just going to order some kelp meal and greensand online screw it. What is a good website to go, found some at wormsway and even ebay. Thanks for all your advice, I really don't want to short-cut this :leaf:
 
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Wetdog

Well-Known Member
ebay will be cheaper than wormsway for sure. Find the best deal on shipping and go with that.

With the seabird guano, be sure to mix it in the soil. A bit too slow release for teas and such.

Don't forget your powdered dolomite lime, also mixed in the soil.

Wet
 
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madodah

Well-Known Member
jjf1978 said:
I bet its the same for the Miracle Grow Blood Meal right? I read the bag didnt see anything about time release until you read the back very small print 12% time released nitrogen. That leaves me needing the kelp/blood meal still hehe. I got the Fox Farms happy frog steamed bone meal - I didn't read anything about it being time released I believe it is organic.
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I don't know. I have an aversion to anything marketed with the name miracle grow. I avoid Fox Farm products primarily due to their pricing and the secondary fact of them producing chemical grow products.

So far I've been able to find mexican/jamaican bat guano and peruvian sea bird guano. I bought 'em all just cause they are so hard to find lol. This still doesn't help me with my K dilemma so I am just going to order some kelp meal and greensand online screw it. What is a good website to go, found some at wormsway and even ebay. Thanks for all your advice, I really don't want to short-cut this :leaf:
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I use Dr. Earth's kelp and alfalfa meals but only because I can buy them locally and they seem dedicated to organic growing. I have limited brand loyalty for grow components if properly processed.
 
M

madodah

Well-Known Member
Wetdog said:
ebay will be cheaper than wormsway for sure. Find the best deal on shipping and go with that.

With the seabird guano, be sure to mix it in the soil. A bit too slow release for teas and such.

Don't forget your powdered dolomite lime, also mixed in the soil.

Wet
Click to expand...
I have a different opinion on automatically adding dolomite lime. When I was putting together this year's soil mix (outdoor container grow), a poster on another forum suggested I check runoff pH on a one gallon test mix before adding lime. I did and it was 6.8. I was going to automatically add the lime to offset the low pH of the 25% peat moss component, but he stated he had experienced significant nutrient lockout by adding lime buffer to his fortified soil mix and living with a pH of 7+ on a test crop. If a high content grow medium with low pH (3.5 - 4.5) is used, it makes sense. 25% of my mix is organically fortified potting soil with a dolomite lime buffer (6.7 pH) and another 25% decomposed cow manure (7.88 pH). My well water is consistent at 7.0.

I recommend anyone mixing up a new growing media test runoff pH on individual components and the mix before adding buffers. There are organic growers who don't bother testing pH because their component and mix knowledge is well established through extensive experience, but I'm not that far along.
 
merkgrows

merkgrows

New Member
dankboss said:
You can substitute any liquid seaweed product (liquid kelp basically) for the kelp meal. You would just have to dilute it and water it into your soil. A common brand is Maxicrop.

Worm castings are very common. Have you checked your hardware store's gardening section? Or local nurseries? If not you can substitute with Black Kow, a cow manure compost that has 0.5-0.5-0.5 NPK. Not as good as worm castings, but acceptable. The best worm castings are homemade however, as commercial worms are fed cardboard and paper, which leads to a very bland diet and bland castings. Worms in a vermicompost bin are fed....whatever you feed them! You can add bread, banana peels, citrus peels....basically any organic matter EXCEPT for dairy and meat products. Also, do not add human or cat/dog shit as these may contain pathogens that are detrimental.

Hope this helps and GL.

PS: If you can't find kelp meal/liquid kelp/seaweed extract, you should try looking for fish hydrolysate (or fish emulsion if you can't find hydrolysate.) Alaska fish emulsion is available at my local HomeDepot and Lowes.
Click to expand...
hey bud i would like to try organic but i dont know anything about it if you let me know in a private message that would be really cool brother.
 
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