What would you pick led or hps?

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Following. same boat, I'm in a closet 2.5x5x8 500w hps a few cfls. Looking to switch to LED to cut on the electric bill to add another room or tents. The closet is a pain the ass and my state is legal so... Also I have AC in the summer and with the door shut it gets too hot I need to run a fan with a scrubber. I know Mars and HGL have been in the game since I started and LEDs sucked. I'm super nervous about spending $500-$1000 and the bud sucks. I used to go by 2700k to flower 4500 to veg. Max watts/area. These leds are way more complex or at least it seems that way. I can't seem to find any straight forward place to start. Same lights to veg and flower, different, use the power controller to turn down etch.
Today's white LED's include the spectrum from a veg light and much of the spectrum from an HPS. It's an "all in one", instead of separates.

The only company I'm aware of that makes separate veg and flower LED's is HLG. Chilled makes "Growcraft" lights and they had separates until late last year; now they're selling white + far red. The white LED covers the entire PAR range and the far red adds some PPFD but it also works synergistically with red to produce more growth than just the extra growth you get from the PPFD from the far red.

PAR = photosynthetically active radiation - the light that plants use in photosythesis
PPFD = photosynthetic photon flux density - the number of photons hitting a given area in a specified time. It's measured in µmol/m2/s or micromols per square meter per second (I abbreviate that as µmol). That's the big number because it tells you how many photons are landing on your plant every second. A good analogy is how much rain is falling in a square meter in one second.

In HPS, MH, CMH (call them "HPS"), input wattage one big metric, lux is the other. With LED's wattage is only a rough guide to how powerful a light is. Also, lux is not used because lux measures only a part of PAR. I've attached a document I wrote about converting lux to PPFD. Check out the picture with the eyeball.

A good rule of thumb for input wattage is 30 to 40 wats/square foot of canopy space. Per above, that's just a rough guide. I grow my plants at 1kµmol± and both of my Growcrafts are 330 watts. At the moment, I'm running grow at 300 watts and the average PPFD on my canopy is 947µmol .

If you're in ambient CO2, cannabis will grow between 64 µmol and 800-1000µmol, roughly speaking. The latter range is called the "light saturation point" and it is a good general guide. Research into light levels and crop quality have shown the cannabis will grow very well in PPFD's at very high levels (in one study, they stopped at 1800µmol) but, in my grows, plants show signs of excess light as they approach 1050µmol.

The amount of light a cannabis plant can use is limited by the grow environment. I've seen grows that can't handle more than 500µmol while others can grow quite well at double that.
 

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jimihendrix1

Well-Known Member
MassMedicalStrains, is coming out with a 1000w, and 600w Halide, that is 6000k. Will be available around 4-20-24. Its like a Hortilux Blue, but way more powerful, and a 5000k higher color temperature. 5500k/Hortilux Blue.
This bulb, is the closest there is, to the spectrum, of the sun, on earth. Halide, also goes past 1000nm. And down to about 310nm-315nm. So, its easy to see this bulb, and the Blue, has a way broader spectrum, than any LED. And the new MMS bulb, is more powerful, than a1000w Hortilux HPS.





 
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jimihendrix1

Well-Known Member
MassMedicalStrains

The invisible portions of the light spectrum are really fascinating. Infrared or IR in particular. It turns out this invisible light which we perceive as heat is incredibly important for both plant metabolic functions as well as human health! By staying indoors we block ourselves from receiving this energy. By going outdoors we get it from the sun and we also get it from the night sky. Plants in nature get plenty. But plants cultivated indoors under LED miss out on this energy range. Plants grown under HID bulbs get a healthy amount of IR from the bulb wether it’s MH, HPS, or CMH. That’s why they need to be fed less nutrient or stay longer in a small amount of soil and get healthier growth under a wider range of temperature. Someone should work on a true night sky simulation light for indoor growing. It may be difficult and only have a subtle effect, but it could be worth exploring. It would have to be the same spectrum as the night sky emissions which includes a lot of long wave infrared energy. This is not about moonlight, although the moon is definitely an additional factor as well.








This illustrates the difference in a way that makes sense. The ratio of all colors is important and is what makes the shape of the graph. Also, led spectral graphs are “normalized” to remove peaks and fill in gaps, aka they are “lying” to you whether they know it or not. Most have no idea about this stuff at all so I don’t think it’s intended to be malicious at all. However, the invisible spectrums in UV and IR ranges are shown more and more by emerging science, to have drastic effects on photosynthesis and other cellular processes within the plants. Of course you can grow great plants with LED but they will not be the same as growing them under bulbs or sunlight. The bulbs have smaller amounts of the UV and IR but they have very significant amounts nonetheless, where LEDs have little to none. Some supplement with UV or IR leds which are only a very narrow wavelength and not the whole range that you get from burning gasses.

While people strive for a more electrically efficient light, they actually lose a lot of the benefits of things that were assumed to be inefficient (such as infrared light) which I’ve been saying are actually a good thing and we don’t want to get rid of them. MH has a similar ratio of heat to light as the sun, and this does special things for the plants. Anyways, ePar is a scientifically proven way of measuring more usable light for plant photosynthesis compared to Par, because it takes into account the 700-750nm wavelengths. It’s a good start for expanding on our understanding of what we are even measuring and working with.

 
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DanKiller

Well-Known Member
Growing with leds seems like growing with the devil lol o_O
From my experience,
Best smoke:
CMH 4200K
MH 6K
MH 4K

Best yield:
LEDS
HPS 2K
MH 4K

Overall:
CMH 4200K
HPS 2K
MH 4K
 

DanKiller

Well-Known Member
Doesn't the spectrum of sunlight, change through the course of the day, and through the year?
More like the intensity of it because of distance from the observation point your in.
The sun is exactly the same just changes paths during the day/month/year, in winter the sun won't become something else, it's just farther away from you, same as for summer, closer to you.
About spectrum shift, I don't think any wavelength is missing in this point of the day or that, just the intensity between them change somewhat, but that's my opinion I guess, I don't hold the right papers right now to back it up ;)
 

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
More like the intensity of it because of distance from the observation point your in.
The sun is exactly the same just changes paths during the day/month/year, in winter the sun won't become something else, it's just farther away from you, same as for summer, closer to you.
About spectrum shift, I don't think any wavelength is missing in this point of the day or that, just the intensity between them change somewhat, but that's my opinion I guess, I don't hold the right papers right now to back it up ;)
Your correct that the sunlight itself, never really changes, but through the day, the sunlight goes through differing levels of atmosphere, changing the spectrum.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Doesn't the spectrum of sunlight, change through the course of the day, and through the year?
More like the intensity of it because of distance from the observation point your in.
The sun is exactly the same just changes paths during the day/month/year, in winter the sun won't become something else, it's just farther away from you, same as for summer, closer to you.
About spectrum shift, I don't think any wavelength is missing in this point of the day or that, just the intensity between them change somewhat, but that's my opinion I guess, I don't hold the right papers right now to back it up ;)
Light in the morning and evening is more red due to the light having to travel through more of the earth's atmosphere. From way back in the day (high school) I think we learned that it was due to the amount of dust in the atmophere.

From my ute:
"Red sky in the morning, sailor's warning. Red sky at night, sailor's delight."

Insofar as the spectrum changing over the course of the year, the fact that the Earth's axis is tilted would make me think that to be correct.

I don't hold the right papers right now to back it up
The tell for me is that you're not posting in all caps.
 

Billy the Mountain

Well-Known Member
BTW, this is more how leds spectrum looks like without the lies:
View attachment 5378753
It's a bit disingenuous to post a spectral curve that's clearly not a contemporary LED.

This is from HLG, who has their lights tested by an independent lab (Light Lab Inc, Anaheim, CA).
Most other published LED charts are quite similar.

1710771157477.png

If you think HIDs are superior to LEDs, more power to ya.
 

DanKiller

Well-Known Member
They all lie my friend, what I showed was how led spectrum is really, give or take.
HIDs are superior to leds in how they make light and it's properties like the sun, not in actual light output, they are different and what I wrote again if you read was my experience, not validate proof.
 

DanKiller

Well-Known Member
Light in the morning and evening is more red due to the light having to travel through more of the earth's atmosphere. From way back in the day (high school) I think we learned that it was due to the amount of dust in the atmophere.

From my ute:
"Red sky in the morning, sailor's warning. Red sky at night, sailor's delight."

Insofar as the spectrum changing over the course of the year, the fact that the Earth's axis is tilted would make me think that to be correct.


The tell for me is that you're not posting in all caps.
I'm not into globe earth theory that much, sorry.
To me light in the morning is just noon to someone else that the light is on top of
at that moment.
If you accept that someone is always dead center under the sun somewhere and he don't see the colors and wavelengths you see from your "sunrise" perspective... what does that mean ? It just means you as the farthest observer just see the light as it goes through atmospheric conditions like @Hollatchaboy said.
But you can also not relate and that's fine :)
 

Billy the Mountain

Well-Known Member
They all lie my friend, what I showed was how led spectrum is really, give or take.
HIDs are superior to leds in how they make light and it's properties like the sun, not in actual light output, they are different and what I wrote again if you read was my experience, not validate proof.
You proved nothing by posting a spectral curve that doesn't resemble a contemporary LED fixture; particularly without any attribution.

Either you're correct in exposing an industry-wide conspiracy to fudge spectrum charts, or the spectrum posted by an accredited 3rd party lab is correct.

Facts matter.

1710780564121.png
 

igna

Well-Known Member
Doesn't the spectrum of sunlight, change through the course of the day, and through the year?
You are absolutely right, the spectrum changes depending on the time

I had sent a pdf with spectral measurements from 8:00 am to 12:00 am and thus see the differences in the spectra, but to put a phrase in Spanish they have deleted it. If you are interested send me an MD.
 

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Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
You are absolutely right, the spectrum changes depending on the time

I had sent a pdf with spectral measurements from 8:00 am to 12:00 am and thus see the differences in the spectra, but to put a phrase in Spanish they have deleted it. If you are interested send me an MD.
Very nice. Im surprised about the low blue % even at midday (18ish %); i was expecting a fair bit more.
 

Rennpappe

Active Member
in winter the sun won't become something else, it's just farther away from you, same as for summer, closer to you.
Not true. In summer the days are longer and the sun gets higher because of the tilted earth axis, hence the higher temperatures.
Earth - sun distance does vary but not synchronous with an earth year.
 
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