SamsonsRiddle
Well-Known Member
if you even heard half the shit people say to me on here just for just saying what the bible says. how do any of you even know if i believe any of this shit?
What don't people understand about "Separation of Church and State"?
- Thread starter Skittles McP
- Start date
Wilderb
Well-Known Member
YOU believe in the invisible man in the sky and you say I'm the stupid one??? LOL
SamsonsRiddle
Well-Known Member
i don't have any clue on how smart you are, that's why i went ahead and sent that your way so you can do some learning today and become even more smart
If you go back and read the thread the majority of the insults of peoples intelligence and hatred towards others are from you and yours.
Science? lol no such thing only magic
schnooby
Well-Known Member
i believe in a creator and i believe in the separation of church and state. I believe Christianity is supposed to be based on the teachings of christ and there was a situation where christs disciple peter had been confused about paying taxes. Matthew 17:27. Its an interesting story on many levels but the short take away is that jesus told peter to avoid offending go ahead and pay the tax. In another situation jesus said give to cesar what belongs to cesar and to god the things which are gods. In another situation he said if his kingdom was of this world then his followers would fight.
I believe there are more than enough examples like the ones i mentioned to demonstrate christs approach to matters of church and state and they appear to embrace a separation as opposed to unification.
as to the first example about the wedding cake. Supposedly we have a free market. Well, i dont suppose anyone really familiar with the us economy would say its very free when businesses are too big to fail etc......but for the sake of argument its a free market and in a free market people should be allowed to refuse service for any and all reasons (my opinion only). In a free market if one business was allowed to refuse service to gay ppl or anyone else it would be the free market which would punish said business by no longer spending money there, and with the internet the bad reputation would spread so fast its practically guaranteed there would be immediate repercussions. With the gov stepping in and managing what otherwise should be the consequence of market forces all it does is increase the size and involvement of gov in the private lives of free adults to willingly conduct commerce with each other or not and force people to comply under the threat of force or other unsavory condequences.
another perhaps unforseen consequence of forcing ppl to do business with those they otherwise would not is it encourages sneaky and perhaps dangerous behavior by those who resent having their hand forced to perform such services. As christians become more savvy and wise to the game being played i can imagine all kinds of scenarios where they comply with the requests for services but do a shoddy job. In retrospect if those bakers in oregon could have a redo they could have just as easily accepted the job and then just not shown up at all and claimed they were both desperately ill with the flu or some such thing and who would be able to prove otherwise?
The only cases where gov intervention is required and even demanded is in those cases where human rights are being violated such as slavery or equal access to goods and services necessary to life and maintenance of life related necessities like food, shelter, clothing, medical care, transportation, education and the like. There are hosts of other services, activities etc which are clearly not necessary for meeting the basic needs of life and those should, in my opinion, be left to market forces to deal with.
as to churches enjoying tax exempt status it has always bothered me. I have very religious grandparents who first taught me that they even claimed their tithes and offerings on tax returns, which they apparently are allowed to do. Even as a very naive and ignorant 15 year old i remember strongly resenting the fact that something which should be a very personal transaction between the believer and god, giving of ones money to support the ministry or other church related things, that one could get some of that money back in the form of a tax break. I felt that the gov should have nothing at all to do with those things and to this day believe churches should enjoy no special benefits from the state with regard to financial or tax matters.......the buildings should be treated like any other buildings and the gov should have nothing to do with believers money when used to support church activities I think its dangerous for churches to have ever askdd for or allowed those kinds of allowances to be made for them as it seems to set a precedent for gov involvement in church matters.
good topic and very relevant to the times were living in.
I believe there are more than enough examples like the ones i mentioned to demonstrate christs approach to matters of church and state and they appear to embrace a separation as opposed to unification.
as to the first example about the wedding cake. Supposedly we have a free market. Well, i dont suppose anyone really familiar with the us economy would say its very free when businesses are too big to fail etc......but for the sake of argument its a free market and in a free market people should be allowed to refuse service for any and all reasons (my opinion only). In a free market if one business was allowed to refuse service to gay ppl or anyone else it would be the free market which would punish said business by no longer spending money there, and with the internet the bad reputation would spread so fast its practically guaranteed there would be immediate repercussions. With the gov stepping in and managing what otherwise should be the consequence of market forces all it does is increase the size and involvement of gov in the private lives of free adults to willingly conduct commerce with each other or not and force people to comply under the threat of force or other unsavory condequences.
another perhaps unforseen consequence of forcing ppl to do business with those they otherwise would not is it encourages sneaky and perhaps dangerous behavior by those who resent having their hand forced to perform such services. As christians become more savvy and wise to the game being played i can imagine all kinds of scenarios where they comply with the requests for services but do a shoddy job. In retrospect if those bakers in oregon could have a redo they could have just as easily accepted the job and then just not shown up at all and claimed they were both desperately ill with the flu or some such thing and who would be able to prove otherwise?
The only cases where gov intervention is required and even demanded is in those cases where human rights are being violated such as slavery or equal access to goods and services necessary to life and maintenance of life related necessities like food, shelter, clothing, medical care, transportation, education and the like. There are hosts of other services, activities etc which are clearly not necessary for meeting the basic needs of life and those should, in my opinion, be left to market forces to deal with.
as to churches enjoying tax exempt status it has always bothered me. I have very religious grandparents who first taught me that they even claimed their tithes and offerings on tax returns, which they apparently are allowed to do. Even as a very naive and ignorant 15 year old i remember strongly resenting the fact that something which should be a very personal transaction between the believer and god, giving of ones money to support the ministry or other church related things, that one could get some of that money back in the form of a tax break. I felt that the gov should have nothing at all to do with those things and to this day believe churches should enjoy no special benefits from the state with regard to financial or tax matters.......the buildings should be treated like any other buildings and the gov should have nothing to do with believers money when used to support church activities I think its dangerous for churches to have ever askdd for or allowed those kinds of allowances to be made for them as it seems to set a precedent for gov involvement in church matters.
good topic and very relevant to the times were living in.
Its a sad topic and its pathetic that it still relevant 2016. All it is, is discrimination period. In this thread its mostly about christianity or jesus, but i can think of at least 5 major religions off the top of my head. Those 5 could be broken down into hundreds maybe thousands of different beliefs or "faiths" where would it end? The bakers don't have to sell a cake to a gay couple so if i sell baking supplies now i don't have to sell to them because they're bigots? Two thousand years from now people will be debating the same shit. Theres a simple solution that doesn't require commandments or laws, something we all should have been taught as kids. Treat people how you want to be treated. Thats it! Pretty simple unless you're racist, sexist, homophobic, or overly religious. You don't have to like what people do and you don't have to agree with it. If it doesn't concern you mind ya business. Watching 2 men have sex would turn my stomach so i don't watch gay porn and i wouldn't be in a profession that would require me to. If they're consenting adults thats their business nobody elses.
Rrog
Well-Known Member
What a truly dumb statement
SamsonsRiddle
Well-Known Member
kind of like how matter magically appeared, or how time scientifically started?
nope time is a man made concept just like religion. I've never seen people worship or kill in the name of science
schnooby
Well-Known Member
its also sad that 90 percent of the world still lives almost exactly the same as we did 10,000 years ago and that there are thousands of children who die every day because they dont have clean drinking water......
the human condition is what it is......and idealists will always lament the slow pace of progress.....
however, on religion.....you could take it all away right now and not only would it not change a thing about our collective plight, but it might actually make it worse. The law of the jungle is brutal in the extreme. Only the higher nature of man has given us the ability to think in terms of the golden rule. Lions, alligators, bear.....predators do not think about such things....
but this thread was originnally about one main thing........so what say you on the original question?
Rrog
Well-Known Member
Society and government are required for the same reasons. Left unchecked without ramifications, predatory humans surface.
How could people worship a god that allows such plight? Why would children die from not having clean water to drink unless the little bastards weren't baptized, in that case fuck em they got what they deserved.
My thoughts on the original topic lol The money in my pocket says "In god we trust" kinda says it all.
Thats why I chose cash as my god I worship dead presidents, they'll get you out of tight spots faster than any other god I've ever heard of. Much more powerful thats why the church collects them.
schnooby
Well-Known Member
well, which god? god is a title like king or president etc.....
and your question is a good one but far beyond the scope of this thread.
i have alot of respect for ppl willing to step outside the paradigms they grew up with or were taught........get completely outside the box......its the only way to have a chance at making sense of anything
Which god? That's a good question I guess that depends on what part of the world you were born in. I have neither a god or religion.