water level and ph question.

Frito Bandito420

Active Member
ok so a little about my setup. rdwc. 3 plants. ppm is right around 1300. ice bottles to cool res temps. switched my lights 12/12 15 days ago. seeing white hairs or whatever. so I guess that's good lol. but my problem is my plants drink the water pretty quick. maybe a gallon or two every 2-3 days. I do not have a ph meter. I have never even checked the ph. no ph meter. I'm using straight tap water. along with formula flora notes. I really noticed the water level changing when I dumped the grow nutes and switched to bloom nutes. so a little summary. plants drink about a gallon or two every 2-3 days. ppm stays the same. using tap water. never checked ph. I read a thread on a site not sure if it was riu though. it was about ph and ppm. if your plants are drinking water but no change in ppm. something was wrong. or vise versa can't quite remember. if anyone has any tips let me know. ill probably go pick up a ph meter and some ph up/down today. just don't know if I need the ph up or down. the ppm of my tap water is 164. thanks guys and gals.
 

VoidObject

DWC/Bubbleponics Mod
If your ppm doesn't change but your water goes down, that means your plants aren't taking up those nutrients. Either meaning your PH is off or you have too much nutrients in there.
 

echlectica

Well-Known Member
I read a paper from Texas A&M about this. The bottom line was that the larger the res the more stable everything is. Also there was a correlation between tank size and how high you can keep you ppm. The bigger the tank the higher ppm could be without having what your describing occur. Also larger bodies of water hold their temps better. There seem to be all kinds of benefits to having a large res. Maybe you can find the paper online.
 

MrBosco

Member
If your ppm doesn't change but your water goes down, that means your plants aren't taking up those nutrients. Either meaning your PH is off or you have too much nutrients in there.
If the plant is drinking up the water but PPM is staying stable then the plant must be taking in nutes, otherwise PPM would rise as nutes become more concentrated in the remaining water. Stable PPM as water level decreases is a good sign. If PPM drops as water level goes down it means the plant is eating more then you're feeding it. If PPM rises the opposite is true, you're feeding more than the plant can take.
 

VoidObject

DWC/Bubbleponics Mod
If the plant is drinking up the water but PPM is staying stable then the plant must be taking in nutes, otherwise PPM would rise as nutes become more concentrated in the remaining water. Stable PPM as water level decreases is a good sign. If PPM drops as water level goes down it means the plant is eating more then you're feeding it. If PPM rises the opposite is true, you're feeding more than the plant can take.
You don't want the concentration to stay the same.. you want it to go down, or else you'll have build up and residue.
 

Frito Bandito420

Active Member
so wait a minute i have two of you telling me two different things. whos right and whos wrong? Do you guys have anything to back up what you said? Maybe like some proof?
 

VoidObject

DWC/Bubbleponics Mod
so wait a minute i have two of you telling me two different things. whos right and whos wrong? Do you guys have anything to back up what you said? Maybe like some proof?
In general, you believe what you want to believe. Or you could trust the fact that I grow DWC.. have been for almost a year and mod the DWC section.

We really didn't even say two different things, MrBosco just said something incomplete.

Water level down-ppm the same: Too much nutes, they're obviously not drinking nutes as much as they are water
water level down-ppm down slightly: This is where you want to be. Meaning water and nutrients are being absorbed at a steady rate. Also indicates you have the right amount of ppms..
water level down-ppm down a lot: You don't have enough nutes.
water level down-ppm up: Way too much nutes.. Your plants are only taking water.
 

Frito Bandito420

Active Member
im just slightly confused. The way i think it should work is... example.. 10 gallon resi. say the ppm is 1000 for 10 gallons of water premixed.. the mixture. say if the water level dropped and the ppm stayed the same. that means its taking up equal amount of water and nutes correct? say there was 5 gallons of water left in the resi and 1000ppm. that would mean it drank 5 gallons of 1000ppm water am i right? but say if it drank 5 gallons of water and the ppm lowered to say 800 instead of the initial 1000. its drinking more nutes than what we mixed per gallon. im just confused a bit.
 

MrBosco

Member
You don't want the concentration to stay the same.. you want it to go down, or else you'll have build up and residue.

'Build up' meaning rising levels of dissolved nutrients in the water? 'Residue' meaning deposits of these dissolved nutes on surfaces in the reservoir, caused by excessive levels of dissolved nutrient (saturation)? Both would seem to me to be associated with rising PPM, not stable PPM. Stable, by definition, means no 'build up', right? I understand why best practise is to aim to have PPM levels fall very slightly between refills, as if you aim for this you will never have problems associated with overfeeding, however I do not believe perfectly stable PPM readings are necessarily a sign of a problem in Frito's grow. Or do you mean build up and residue may be occurring in the growth medium and not the water reservoir?

If PPM levels drop significantly between reservoir top-ups it means that the plant is consuming more nutrient relative to water volume than is being provided, suggesting the plant can eat a little more without nutrient build-up in the tank. Perfectly stable PPM values between reservoir top-ups suggest to me that Frito's grow is right in the sweet spot between overfeeding and underfeeding. I understand that to be safe you should slightly underfeed, as the consequences of overfeeding are severe, but so long as PPM values in the reservoir aren't rising at all then I do not see how the grow is in danger. Or am I missing something?

I accept that my first post was incomplete. To avoid danger you should aim to have PPM values fall slightly between refils. But am I correct in thinking that in a few days Frito's plant will grow a little larger and his PPM values will again move from stable to falling slightly, thus he's good to go?
 

VoidObject

DWC/Bubbleponics Mod
Believe whatever you want, I'm done explaining, I don't reexplain, and I'm not going to argue with anyone. Do tests yourself, keep it stable, and then clean your dirty built up rez later.

I should have noted my information pertains to organic nutrients.
 

Frito Bandito420

Active Member
well after searching a little bit I found this thread https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/142213-targeting-nutrient-ppm-levels-aero.html


here is a good quote from the thread. it makes sense to me.

You cannot just say, "oh yes give the plants X amount of ppm". Because if you give a small plant 700 ppm, it will DIE very very quickly. (Especially on a .5 conversion scale).

Let me try to explain this by example.

Example 1:

We have a Aeroponics setup with a 20 gallon reservoir with 14 female plants that are currently 4 weeks into the vegetative growth stage. How much nutrients should be in the reservoir? Obviously, you don't want to add too much or they will burn to death, and you don't want to add too little or they will be deficient. So we go ahead and start small, and add 200 ppm. After a day you notice that the ppm meter reads 150 ppm in the reservoir. So you add more nutrients (in the recommended proportial ratios as listed on the bottle) and bring it up to 300 ppm. The next day you notice the ppm meter reads 290 ppm, so you add more nutrients and bring the reservoir up to 350 ppm. A few days pass by and you notice NO change on the ppm meter, but the reservoir water level has gone done considerably (soaked up by the plants). Why did the PPMs stay the same once the reservoir was increased to 350 ppm? Good question.

This means that the plants required a target nutrient concentration of 350 ppm so that the nutrient uptake RATE and water uptake RATE of the plants at this particular stage of growth are perfectly balanced. In other words, the plants would consume just enough nutrients, and just enough water keep the current ratio of nutrients to water in the reservoir at 350ppm. This is how you know you are at the right level of nutrients in your reservoir.

Example 2:

We have a Aeroponics setup with a 20 gallon reservoir with 14 female plants that are currently 6 weeks into the flowering growth stage. What should the nutrients be at? The ppms are currently set at 800 PPMs. A day passes by, and you notice that the PPMs have increased to 950 PPMs. You add some distilled water to the reservoir, and bring the PPMs down to 700 PPMs. Another day passes by, and you notice the PPM meter now reads 750 ppms. So you add more distilled water to bring the total reservoir nutrient concentration to 600 PPMs. A few days pass by and you notice the PPM meter still reads 600 PPMs. What does this mean?


Because the PPM level was constantly increasing when the PPMs were at 800, or 700, this implies that the plants were uptaking more water than nutrients. So more water was added to decrease the concentration of nutrients in the reservoir. Once the concentration (when I say concentration, this means the proportion of water to nutrients in the reservoir) was decreased to a target level of 600 PPM, the rate at which the plants were consuming water and the rate at which the plants were consuming nutrients allowed for the 600 PPM concentration to remain constant. This is the correct reservoir concentration for the plants at this growth stage.

As you can see, using this method is very easy, and it is very easy to apply to any strain, any type of EC meter, or hydro setup. It bases everything on the RATE at which the plants are consuming the nutrients, and water.

Any comments?
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I should have noted my information pertains to organic nutrients.
This thread was confusing me. Now it no longer does.

GH Flora are inorganic nutes, essentially 100% of tds are nutrient. For such, stable ppm with decreasing volume means "dialed in" imo. With organic nutes, there is so much else that isn't a primary nutrient that stable high ppms would eventually lead to trouble. fwiw cn
 

MrBosco

Member
@ Frito yes it is from posts just like that in several grow journals that I've drawn my (admittedly basic) understanding of optimal nutrient concentrations. I can't honestly say from experience that this is how it works, but it seems to work well for the growers who use the method. From what I userstand it applies well to DWC and aero systems, where water and air are the primary growth mediums, but not necessarily to other methods where nutrients can be deposited in the growth medium. If you were to aim for stable PPM values in a drip system for example (like a waterfarm) then you can't trust that all the 'missing' nutrient has gone into the plant - it may have been deposited in the growth medium (on the surface of clay balls for example) and may build up over time to dangerous levels.
 

echlectica

Well-Known Member
Here is a way of looking at it. If the water level goes down and the ppm goes up drastically it means your plant is expending more energy transpiring water than taking up nutrients and growing. This condition is often caused by heat also it can be caused by improper pH. To combat this condition maintain a proper pH and keep your grow area at proper temperature.
 
Top