Vertical kinda sucks

OGEvilgenius said:

The biggest downside as far as I can see is the potential eye damage working in your garden. Get high quality eye protection. Or simply work when the lights are off.

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no joke,,,TRUTH, i have to throw a towel over the cooltube after i dim it because you can't avoid it, it burns...

Badmf said:

Wrong my friend, it is better in that you get more yield from the same lights . I have run verts and other than close quarters for maintainence no issues. More light closer to more plants =more yield.

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I concur, My cooltubes are the shit, the plants get right up next to the light like they cannot get enough, have had to scoot em back once allready in 3 weeks..

BearDown! said:

no joke,,,TRUTH, i have to throw a towel over the cooltube after i dim it because you can't avoid it, it burns...

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eye damage? did we miss a class or 2 no, jk. there is no eye damage to worry about reall so long as you dont stare at an HPS with bare eyes, all the other HID are nothing to worry about other than the fact they are bright. HPs puts off IR which can burn your eyes but it runs in a pretty straight patch so as long as you aren't looking at the source or have something between your eyes and the light you should be just fine without any thing more than a dollar tree pair of sunglasses.no commercial HID bulbs out off UV whcih could burn your eyes but this would be something more o worry about with MH rather than HPS and that would take the glass of the bulb to be damaged in someway in which case you should replace it anyways.

I have had lots odf neck burns when I thought I had the lites up high enough and was wrong, lol. Insane is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a differnt outcome. Next build this is the priority! Had 128 plants in 2's and watered by hand daily, painful but huge yeild. BTW nothing works right if you don't know what yer doin!

I only grow vertical now but have grown horizontal for years so I have experienced both and can say IMHO vertical is the larger yielding method. With horizontal I never got over one and a half pounds per 1000 watt bulb, but now with vertical I get usually around the two pound per bulb mark. I don't think the difference is double like some state, but reasonably up to 25 percent increase. That being said I do believe some people do just fine with horizontal, it really comes down to what you feel most comfortable with and your grow methods.

I grow with four bulbs in an 12 by 18 room and have it cooled by just the homes central air unit and never have temperatures above 85 degrees. This is possible because I use a fan under each light pointed straight up to the ceiling. This seems to work exceptionally well.

Just my input on the subject. I will be taking photos in the next week or so of my room and will post them here. I think it's time I post something, have not been here too long.

WP

Well since I don't have a vert grow I can't really comment if vert sucks, but I am interested in setting it up and just by reading around and lookin at other posts I found this here and well its kinda hard to argue with geometry isn't it? I got this pic from someone elses vert thread but it give u an idea how much more area a vert light will give u.
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Nice pic! I should add that if you grow large plants then vertical is the way to grow, but if you do very small plants it is possible to get great results with horizontal. The reason I wanted to add this is so that people don't get the wrong idea. There is a place for both vertical and horizontal, and I think that is dictated by grow style.

Dvs1038, thanks for the cool pic. Never seen that one. Had to save it.

WP

tibberous said:

I wouldn't say 'big yields' so much as efficient yields. 6000 watts over E&F tables will out yield a 2000 watt vertical system that took as long and cost as much as to make (and uses as many plants). The whole theory with vertical is that a bigger canopy is better than a reflector - you still loose some light to the top and bottom though.

Thing is, %20 better light usage doesn't matter if your needing to run a 1/2 hp chiller, or a bunch of AC's, or your plants get pests that you can't deal with because you can't get to them.

Guess my point is that, before anyone goes vertical, they need to realize it isn't 'better', it's just different. It's pretty disappointing to put together a super-elaborate system, just to realize that (except in the winter), it's no better than normal ebb and flow tables.

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Heat is much less an issue with vertical grows if done properly. You do not need an elaborate system to get large yields growing vertically. Just grow some large plants in large pots an hang bulbs around them. No CO2. Assuming you know your plants and they are not super low yielding varieties you should hit 1gpw your first go at it, if not more.

1gpw = standard for vertical. 0.6 or so gpw = standard for horizontal. 2.5ish GPW = dialed in productive hydro colloseum vertical. 1.2ish in a dialed in horizontal with all the bells and whistles with appropriate genetics etc(I have heard of the 1.5 range but those guys would probably be hitting 3gpw vertically and I am quite sure that Heath got damn close to that marker in one of his aeroponic colloseum grows but it was lost with overgrow).

At least from what I have seen. I realize a lot of guys are closer to the 1gpw mark horizontally, but they would do much better vertically with equally dialed in plants in an appropriate setup. You can of course do things wrong or poorly. Although IMO this particular technique is hard to screw up if you are simply judging the outcome based on what most people end up yielding.

You also do not need to buy reflectors.

One way is clearly superior to the other, however I totally understand that some people do not have space to do a vertical. Vertical grows require a bit more space to maximize if you are using HPS lights. You can get away with wasting more light in a smaller area growing horizontally if your space is really limited. I cannot see any other logical reason to do a classic horizontal style grow however.

But, to each their own. If you are happy with what you are doing, more power to you.

Weeds phobic said:

Nice pic! I should add that if you grow large plants then vertical is the way to grow, but if you do very small plants it is possible to get great results with horizontal. The reason I wanted to add this is so that people don't get the wrong idea. There is a place for both vertical and horizontal, and I think that is dictated by grow style.

Dvs1038, thanks for the cool pic. Never seen that one. Had to save it.

WP

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If you go small plants vertically you can get insane numbers. Even large plants the numbers can be quite surprising. Of course a lot of it boils down to genetics and your own individual setup. But Heath pulled incredible numbers in vert SOG grows. These setups take a fair bit more work and or cost to get going if you go prefab. I have seen some decent homemade setups that could be done somewhat cheaply.

Badmf said:

Wrong my friend, it is better in that you get more yield from the same lights . I have run verts and other than close quarters for maintainence no issues. More light closer to more plants =more yield.

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Depends on how you do it. My best yields have come from a horizontal w/hood, stadium hybrid, SOG.

It's too much work though. These days, am more worried about man hours efficiency than gram/watt or even kwh/watt.

I understand getting into the fun of efficiency. Just more interested don't have the time these days,

So you didn't get a great yeild with verts majority here do/did. I have a 40 tube aeroflo system horizontal, it can't touch vert stadiums or cages. If growing is too much work than maybe you shouldn't do it?

I think it's like most things in growing, it depends on your personal situation, what space you have to work with, and what you want to achieve. It's funny in growing that everyone thinks their way is the best.

DST I would disagree as vert is "a" way not "my" way lol, I understand what you mean but it isn't personal but factual as to which method doesn't suck as was posted Any set-up can and do fail with various growers for various reasons. true each grow has its own parameters of size, amperage , budget etc and last but not least grower experience.

first off, if cooling is your problem; your vent and fan placement is TERRIBLE. all you need to do is put a box fan on the floor under your light, then have your ventilation directly above your light, no cooling tubes(super inefficient lighting) no ac or chillers necessary(unless for your hydro system but thats another problem not having anything to do with vertical growing. the point of a scrog is so your plants can grow a little wild if your plants are getting too tall for your system train them to the sides if they are filling the screens too quickly then you are in veg too long. the difficulty to get to your plants just means you set up your system poorly and YOU made it difficult to get to your plants. I do not think you researched this type of growing well enough before trying it and you should say it "sucks" before you know how to do it. this type of growing is for advanced growers only, if it isn't working out for you it is most likely because you are doing it wrong. Don't hate on a system because you failed at it, rather you should learn the correct way to do it

OGEvilgenius said:

If you're looking for big yields, vertical is the way to achieve them. You increase your lit square footage significantly if done efficiently and well. It does present challenges, but that's half the fun.

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lol i wouldn't go that far as to saying that it if your looking for huge yields thats the way to go there are other techniques in growing that makes you achieve HUGE yields

5 plant 6 pound harvest 2 k 100's of buds looking like the one on 5 gallon pail cheers day 29 few more days and half done

damn dr those a sexy...

DrGreener said:

lol i wouldn't go that far as to saying that it if your looking for huge yields thats the way to go there are other techniques in growing that makes you achieve HUGE yields

5 plant 6 pound harvest 2 k 100's of buds looking like the one on 5 gallon pail cheers day 29 few more days and half done

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That would be a fairly average yield for a vertical setup with that much light. Obviously you can do really well horizontally too. You can do better vertically though, there is no debate. Objectively it's simply a fact.

Heath robinson pulled 47oz from 1 600w vertically without CO2. 1200w = 6lbs. You're at 2000w. Both of you obviously have your shit dialed in for your respective setups. I would suggest to you that if you changed it up you would pull down even more than what you're pulling down now. I realize once you have a room setup though, it's a PITA to change it up. Still, next time around, give it a go IMO.

Nice horizontal grow though for sure.

OGEvilgenius said:

That would be a fairly average yield for a vertical setup with that much light. Obviously you can do really well horizontally too. You can do better vertically though, there is no debate. Objectively it's simply a fact.

Heath robinson pulled 47oz from 1 600w vertically without CO2. 1200w = 6lbs. You're at 2000w. Both of you obviously have your shit dialed in for your respective setups. I would suggest to you that if you changed it up you would pull down even more than what you're pulling down now. I realize once you have a room setup though, it's a PITA to change it up. Still, next time around, give it a go IMO.

Nice horizontal grow though for sure.

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47 oz off 600 watt i call BS without pics dude it was probably wet 47 x 28 grams per oz = 1316 grams divide by 4 gave him 329 dry grams so gave him not even 3/4 of a pound
here i can go this way 454 x 6 pound = 2724 dry grams x 4 = 10,896 wet grams = divide by 28 = 389 0z i made off 2 k lighting WET
there is no changing my set up only plant count and wattage as temps permit

its not about light, its about light applied right? well with vertical plants more light is applied on the plants, not having to penetrate a dense canopy more of the plant is in full light exposure. a long with having more room for more plants with the same light. theres good reason to do both vert and horizontal, mostly depends on space at hand. but if your plants are gonna be taller then 2-3ft why light them from the top? and if multiple lights are hung between the plants being grow vert wouldnt it be far superior because its being lit from both sides with more plant surface area exposed? all in all its about how YOU like to do it. someones going to do it differently no matter what you tell them, what kind of data or graphs theyre presented with theyre going think theyre way is the best way. In the end we're all trying to grow the most possible for the least cash possible, in which case vert can be a way to get more plant around the same light while getting the same if not more lumens.

my two cents.

DrGreener said:

47 oz off 600 watt i call BS without pics dude it was probably wet 47 x 28 grams per oz = 1316 grams divide by 4 gave him 329 dry grams so gave him not even 3/4 of a pound
here i can go this way 454 x 6 pound = 2724 dry grams x 4 = 10,896 wet grams = divide by 28 = 389 0z i made off 2 k lighting WET
there is no changing my set up only plant count and wattage as temps permit

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He's done better than 2gpw in setups with CO2 and a bit more attention... but most of those journals were lost with overgrow.

Heath is a growing legend. He harvested that dried and trimmed.

The thread for your viewing pleasure: https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/149998-heaths-flooded-tube-vertical.html

Vertical = more surface area per sq ft of room, less wasted light and less issues with heat because there are no reflectors. This is why it is more efficient and always will be.