top leaf veins BROWN ? help

Any one got an idea what starts at the top of a plant turning the veins brown, spreading pretty rapid.
Also got some necrotic spots which led me to think Cal def? but that really doesn't explain the veins, perhaps they aren't linked.

Rust perhaps?
heres a poor quality picture....



hope you can make out the browness in the picture.

about 2 weeks into flowering, this mess started after i flushed it with half strength blooming nutes 1-3-5. It is a clone, unknown type, i believe its a Sativa dominant

Many thanks look forward to some verdicts

Cant really make out the browning from the pics, but the other issue there could be heat stress or a pH problem, but wait for others input as im no expert. We have just got over a heatwave and I have seen these on both mine and a friends grow in the same week.

I had an issue with leaf browning though and it was simply the fan I had to add over the hot period was drying them out (wind burn)... changed direction of the fan so it didn't blow directly at the girls and it stopped.

Hope someone more experienced can help you out mate, I would say get some better quality pictures up also.

Peace.

from the top, maybe calcium deficiency.. but you need to provide more information pertaining to what kind of food your feeding your girls, how close are your lights, RH, temp, PPM, pH, and a picture of the whole plant

I wish i could get better photos man, sadly i only have a film camera and my laptop camera. those pictures really are shit.

I recently started feeding sugar peak flowering to the ladies 2-4-5.
2 of them like it and the third (one with the brown veins) really does not. other symptoms are new growth dying, appearing as phosphorous def but shouldnt be as ive fed it the nutes i just mentioned. Must be a uptake problem, but the soil is still drenched from last time i flushed it.
Im lacking a lot of equipment ppm meters and decent PH meters, got the basic drop PH testers, the run off last time was between 6-7, perhaps abit too close to 7.
temp around 24-26
humidity unknown, its in my room so its got some humidity

Im using 125watt CFL cool white (i wish i had a bigger one) and the light is no where near enough to burn it, it has to be literally 2 cm away to cause burn.

its a riight mess, the plant deteriorated massively since i posted this too, annoying coz it was looking well hopeful.



I dunno how much these pics will aid in judging the problem, they are pretty wank.

First 2 pictures are of the other ladies that are doing okay, just to show the environment isn't the cause i don't think.

I considered calcium def, as there are nercotic spots too, is it okay to foliar feed mag cal?

thanks lads feedback is appreciated

peace

batf1nk said:

Cant really make out the browning from the pics, but the other issue there could be heat stress or a pH problem, but wait for others input as im no expert. We have just got over a heatwave and I have seen these on both mine and a friends grow in the same week.

Peace.

Click to expand...

Guessing your UK based then cause we also just had a heat wave, probably was cooler in the ol grow room than outside! which is saying something for autumn time in UK.

There was some thing sinister about this leaf browning, i know that sounds stupid but the way it appeared instantly after flushing and spread rapidly. the plants had lots of different symptoms going on now so i dunno where to start.

Hey dude im from the UK and grow with cfls, 250watt red and blue for flowering, i use westlands multi purpose soil from homebase or b&q and simply add lime and perlite and it gives great results.

One thing i notice about tap water here is some is hard or soft but easy to go online and find out what your local water analysis is plus its cal/mag content.

I just dont flush, it quite often screws plants up nutrient wise and can take a while to re-adjust. Personally i never flush no more and simply get almost a third runoff with ferts and water i add to the soil everytime, seems to be working a treat.

Probably if you wana pm me your particular region or feel safe enough to post it here i could look into your tap water a little. Peace

Analysis Typical Value UK/EU limit Units
Hardness level very soft
Hardness Clarke 1.925 Clarke
Aluminium 10.3 200 µg Al/l
Calcium 8.74 mg Ca/l
Residual chlorine - Total 0.53 mg/l
Residual chlorine - Free 0.48 mg/l
Coliform bacteria 0 0 number/100ml
Colour <0.769 20 mg/l Pt/Co scale
Conductivity 84.4 2500 uS/cm at 20oC
Copper 0.0057 2 mg Cu/l
E.coli 0 0 number/100ml
Iron 6.85 200 µg Fe/l
Lead <0.261 25 µg Pb/l
Magnesium 1.47 mg Mg/l
Manganese 1.70 50 µg Mn/l
Nitrate 1.31 50 mg NO3/l
Sodium 7.49 200 mg Na/l

I had checked this before...

great minds think alike

though my mind isn't great enough to work out the relevance of all this sadly, i just did it originally for the PH which isn't shown anyway.

Yeh im not too keen on flushing now, might follow your ways next time aswell as your medium mix, sound nice a cheap too!

Another issue with this plant is it hasn't got good drainage at all, this grow has been a learning curve, hence the 2 other plants are pretty happy as i did a soil coco mix to help drainage.

Cheers king

My water company released a simplified version which gave ppm readings and pH, thats tricky to work out but i am guessing you might have soft water, cant remember mg to ppm conversion rates and think it about 1mg to 1ppm depending on the mineral roughly.

Can you find out if you have soft water, we have hard rock where i live and not much dissolvable minerals, was a search to find out my water but now im cool and never get cal/mag or ph problems.

Anyways have a gander at my seedling thread, if you read all my posts they basically describe my seedling and flowering soil mix if you ever wana give it a try, i also add the homebase lime and show how i grind it up to get some powdered and some larger grains into the soil. My runoff is always about 6 to 6.5, under that and i assume ferts are building up slightly although a one third runoff means this dosent happen often-

https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/468937-germinating-seedling.html

This is basically where im up to at the moment, not to say its right or wrong but best i can offer and do myself at the moment. You'll apreciate we had quite a heatwave recently which is why i stopped the pics, well over 25 without the lights on for about a week almost. Good luck

LOL LOL just before checking back in this thread I was on essex & suffolk waters page looking at mine... great minds indeed..

Anyway, cant decipher mine its a fucking essay!! But I'm using RO and getting pissed of with it, i get lovely output water but then the micro nutrients are absent so I have to make up with ca/mg. TDS in my water is made up mostly of those elements so starting to think screw all this RO lark.

Download THIS for hardness in your area mate.

Keen Green Ferrit said:

Analysis Typical Value UK/EU limit Units
Hardness level very soft
Hardness Clarke 1.925 Clarke
Aluminium 10.3 200 µg Al/l
Calcium 8.74 mg Ca/l
Residual chlorine - Total 0.53 mg/l
Residual chlorine - Free 0.48 mg/l
Coliform bacteria 0 0 number/100ml
Colour <0.769 20 mg/l Pt/Co scale
Conductivity 84.4 2500 uS/cm at 20oC
Copper 0.0057 2 mg Cu/l
E.coli 0 0 number/100ml
Iron 6.85 200 µg Fe/l
Lead <0.261 25 µg Pb/l
Magnesium 1.47 mg Mg/l
Manganese 1.70 50 µg Mn/l
Nitrate 1.31 50 mg NO3/l
Sodium 7.49 200 mg Na/l

Click to expand...

So this is what your water is and you want me to descipher it! Damn i wish you would have called them up or e-mailed and asked them to give the relevant data in ppm, must be a common question for them.

Ok so i have avoided having to learn this but here goes for your data supplied above and the conversion factors and rates to express this in simple stoner ppm (took me about 8 hours to get this right and dont quote me on it)-

Calcium - Your reading is 8.74 mg Ca/l So we take this and multiply it by calciums meq/l or its atomic weight which is 40

so 8.74 x 40 = 349.6

Unfortunatly it gets more complicated there because all elements have a conversion factor of 1 or two which it must be divided for to give its available charges and not its dissolved particles per solution. Calcium has a conversion factor of two

so 349.6 / 2 = 174.8 ppm of calcium (I think)

Magnesium - Again the same equation for your magnesium figure - 1.47 mg Mg/l and remembering that magnesium has an atomic weight of 24 and a conversion factor (valence) of 2 -

1.47 x 24 = 35.28

35.28 / 2 = 17.64 ppm of magnesium

Please dont quote me on this and i will leave the links to find the information i used to get these conversion rates and factors. Results seem pretty believable at 174.8ppm cal and 17.64ppm magnesium. If you got a ppm meter maybe read the ppm and see if its around 200, would need quite an accurate one like hanna that dosent read in 100ppm jumps but normal ones might just show up at 200ppm.

If these results are correct, please someone with a good chemistry degree please explain if i have done somthing wrong, then you have water with way loads of calcium and little magnesium based on a good ratio of 3:1 cal/mag and 90ppm:30ppm of cal/mag so yer water not great and cal/mag supplements might just make it worse.

Easiest recomendation would be to add just magnesium till mag ppm was about 50ppm to balance of the calcium and getting near the 3:1 ratio required. At least you havent got very hard water and here in Britian this would be called just hard water. I believe other countries have different systems and ways of working hardness out.

Evian has good cal/mag levels for plants but exspensive as an alternative to adding magnesium or the obvious Ro water machine.

Sorry for being a dick and making such a long post. Peace

References -

http://www.nwl.co.uk/NW_Water_quality_chart_2010.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalent_(chemistry)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water
http://www.nephron.com/cgi-bin/SI.cgi
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/weeds/weed-control-guides/nd-weed-control-guide-1/wcg-files/18.3-H2O%20Quality.pdf

batf1nk said:

Download THIS for hardness in your area mate.

Click to expand...

haha i like it, made simple for simpletons

how much you get your RO for?

either of ya UK lads done guerilla grow?
i fancy it next year with that Big Bad john that keep regenerating each year, don't know if i fully believe but it'd be worth a go. love to have wild weed growing, one step closer to legalisation.

woah King seems like you must've enjoyed doing that, i hope you did anyway, thats a lot of work! cheers man, tried repping ya but seems i already have done.
getting the old noggin going, my maths skills are no more haha. you keen for chemistry?

Its a shame your conclusion is not to add anymore Mag/Cal as i was just about too, as i have seen some small necrotic spots on top of my healthy babes so getting worried now.
Whys this stuff hit during flowering, harsh times.

some new questions for anybody...

Is it a bad idea to foliar feed Mag/Cal?

you don't get spots from Mag def do you?

what could be the cause of buds actually dying from the top down along all of the plant, doesn't seem to be much pattern.

Think i might just section this plant of death coz its just soaking up precious light and wasting it.

thanks agai,n one day i can return some useful knowledge to this site

I have a home RO unit I picked up for 40 odd quid. Will be upgrading that soon because waiting for RO is a royal pain in the butt unless you have a high GPD system.

King, very good assessment you did there +rep

Dont quote me on the water analysis and turning tds to ppm because im unsure but looks like it could be right, i need someone who actually knows to verify it but have asked some and probably look into it futher as quite intresting. If im wrong hopefully someone will pull me up and show me the right equation to use.

As for the brown veins and problems i can offer this but again it is not somthing to believe because again i cant be certain. For me veins turning brown and also visably crispy is the sign of deficiency although which particular one i dont know. As the specific nutrient is sucked from the vein (as some are stored in the vein i think) what is left behind as a result of this is brown crispy veins which apparently is what they look like minus the nutes it used.

This is pure sci fi stuff for me though, somthing i heard and have yet to research or verify so dont again quote me on it. Seems to suggest this after the flush that the plant turned deficient or unstabalised in available nutrients and hence your problem even though you re-added half strength after the flush.

I wouldn't mess with it too much till it gives you some signs of stabalizing or at least some good new growth. I am beginning to think that flushing in soil is not good and should only be recomended as a last resort.

Buds dying from the top down might suggest a micro deficiency like boron, iron etc etc but maybe this is the result of the flush and the plant is just getting use to the soil again and no futher need to add any more ferts.

Really i am lost here as to what to do, personally id leave it to ponder about and see how this problem progresses. Im intrested in seeing some more pics but just out of curiosity as i too have had problems like this after flushing and wasnt much i could do to sort it out except leave it and slowly re-intoduce ferts and micros again over time. Peace

Man I think you may be over reacting. I used to start doing all sorts of shit and dumpin all sorts of shit in the soil whenever I saw a discoloration or any form of deformaty. but I've learned micromanaging = microproblems As for flushing it's a personal preference and I've found it to be a waste of time and I don't like putting the plant through it, nor like withholding anything from it. ( NO one in agriculture flushes their vegies or fruits, In the tobacoo industry they don't flush their plants before harvest why is marijuana so special?

Ok so back to the point I wouldn't worry too much about it now, I get spots on leaves occasionally or discolorations, most of the time it goes away just like any other plant in my garden.

http://www.unitconversion.org/concentration-solution/milligrams-per-liter-to-parts-per-million-ppm-conversion.html

or:

1 mg/L = 1 ppm
assuming: 1 cm3 of pure water = 1g =1000mg
1 liter water = 1000 ml = 1000 g = 1 000 000 &#956;l or 1 000 000 mg

1 mg/1 liter = 1 mg/ 1 000 000 &#956;l = 1mg/1 000 000 mg = 1 ppm

Other than the purely academic, why are we getting this minutely analytical? I see no practical reason to be that critical other than the pure knowledge of it.

Jack - Originally looked at water content just to see if the was too much/little calcium/mag as troubleshooting to find my problem. I was lost a long time ago.
I love a good converter, bookmarked

King - Hunna put more pictures up coz there is a lot of still lime green leaves with dark green wrinkled almost mouldy looking edges curling and falling, nasty sight.
I am lost also, your right tho just gunna have to sit it out now.

Sir Lancelot - i do agree with you entirely i do often over react and initially so this might've bin the case....but this plant really isn't well, dropping about 5-10 leaves a day. the brown veins and spots haven't progressed much they are least of my worries now.

Are Sativa's more fussy than Indica's? or perhaps its because its a clone, but i've had alot of problems with this fucker.

thanks again for input.

I had 2 phenos of a JHxViking going , 1 indica dom, the other a Sat dom. The Sat dom DEVOURED cal/mag during flower. I had basically the same prob during the first 2 grows of it, although the necrotic tissue was a lighter brown on mine. I finally started feeding cal/mag and the problem went away. I was using tap as well, with a relatively good mineral content.
It COULD be a K issue, but I believe it's cal/mag.

another day another bunch of dead leaves

lots of nasty poor quality images for you there. its turning into a right freak of a plant.

picture 4 just shows the bud dying in the middle, turning brown, in the centre of the image.