The truth about minimum wage and income inequality

Winter Woman

Winter Woman

Well-Known Member
GOD HERE said:
Really? You're going to quote Milton Friedman? When are people going to have logic kick in and get over this idiotic lie that if we give the rich more money they'll create jobs. We've done that and its sunk our economy. Oh if we just get rid of minimum wage laws (as if they weren't low enough already) and allow people to be payed a dollar an hour we could have more jobs. Because that makes a lot of fucking sense. It should only take about 5 seconds for a semi intelligent person to hear that argument and think "this sounds like a load of utter bullshit". Who is going to benefit from these ideas? The private sector. The private sector doesn't care about whether or not someone has a job or is making a living wage. If you're making living wage you're replaceable. And if the economy is so bad where no one has to abide by a minimum standard of compensation, people will work for anything. It increases the pool of desperate workers who don't make demands and are "grateful" just to have a shit dead end job. That is the type of economy right wing libertarian-ism leads to. That's the goal from a business perspective. Of course if you talk to a retard libertarian they've been indoctrinated with some idiotic nonsensical Utopian dream.
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Sunk our economy? What until what O has done really hits the economy. Everyone will be out of a job and the dollar devalued.

You want a better job or more money then learn a trade or arm yourself with a degree that job providers want. Not a ms in social work, history, arts, etc. You may want to be a social worker but guess what most employers don't want that or need it.

Private sector. Most private sector jobs are provided by small businesses not corporations. You are right everyone is replaceable even the business owner. When they die or sellout a new comes along just like employees. It's life get over it.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
Your government called. They said if you want to start a new business, you have to pay them money and jump thru a bunch of hoops, then MAYBE you can open the business and give them about a 20-30% cut for uh "protecting you". Do you REALLY think there is a free market presently? Really?
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In fairness (despite that I feel the economy is bad for the environment) the gov't also creates consumers through wealth redistribution. This increases aggregate demand (along with growth which I actually oppose) which does, in fact, protect business.

Also, the free market arguments were touched by Nader in the video in the OP and he made a great point that I think liberals such as yourself should consider. He pointed out that one facet of economic liberty leads to exploitation by capitalists which is exportation of employment. For me, it is simple to dismiss it, as a granola eating environmental terrorist but I'm curious about a response from the voluntaryist perspective to it which means it should come from yourself or Deprave. It seems to me you guys like to just decry any kind of internationalism and then ignore it, but what other countries do does affect American workers.
 
Winter Woman

Winter Woman

Well-Known Member
bundee1 said:
Hmm starve or a dollar? Work an hour and still not be able to Afford a cup of coffee. Hmm in that case crime pays better.
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If you work mininum wage you don't buy Starbucks. Mininum wages jobs are how you learn how to be a good employee.
 
Winter Woman

Winter Woman

Well-Known Member
GOD HERE said:
Oh definitely not initially, I'm talking the end result. It's a regressive system. If that's true than why do people work for minimum wage? I personally wouldn't, its insulting, but a TON of people still do because they have no choice. Does heading even further in that direction seriously seem like a good idea to you? Leaving the welfare of society up to a bunch of repeat criminals in big business? Or would putting in rules seem more logical? I don't know about you, but I'd go with some intelligent regulations, considering it's a lack of regulation that got us in all this mess to begin with.
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A vast majority of small business owners haven't seen a police officer except for traffic tickets and when their shops are B&D and yet you call them criminals. You make no sense except that your thought process is so lacking that you have to blame someone else for a section of the population that failed to educate themselves or develop.
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
In fairness (despite that I feel the economy is bad for the environment) the gov't also creates consumers through wealth redistribution. This increases aggregate demand (along with growth which I actually oppose) which does, in fact, protect business.

Also, the free market arguments were touched by Nader in the video in the OP and he made a great point that I think liberals such as yourself should consider. He pointed out that one facet of economic liberty leads to exploitation by capitalists which is exportation of employment. For me, it is simple to dismiss it, as a granola eating environmental terrorist but I'm curious about a response from the voluntaryist perspective to it which means it should come from yourself or Deprave. It seems to me you guys like to just decry any kind of internationalism and then ignore it, but what other countries do does affect American workers.
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Government must first TAKE, before they can do anything. They don't "create" anything or provide services. The government also "creates jobs" by building prisons and hiring thugs to patrol the world. I don't think wealth redistribution by force is an argument for government, do you?

Exportation of labor? So a person should be able to tell a business owner they cannot contract with other people? I'm not a big fan of borders, they inhibit the free movement of goods and services and people.

I don't decry internationalism so much as I decry authoritarianism, nationalism and statism. What other countries do is use the same business model as the USA, they prevent open trade and extort.

Nothing wrong with granola, if that's what you like to eat.
 
GOD HERE

GOD HERE

Well-Known Member
nontheist said:
Minimum wage did not crash the economy giving irresponsible people large loans did. Trickle up economics doesn't seem to work any better than down.

Lowered the standard of living? Because people can't throw that extra big screen for their bedroom on a credit card they can't afford? It wasn't a new standard of living it was borrowed money and time.

Stagnated wages? Economics 101 during a recession wages will deflate. Compound that with a botched stimulus that spiked inflation and tada welcome to 2013 where you make less money and things cost more. Thank you I think we all see how government utopia works.
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I'm sorry did I say anything about the minimum wage crashing the economy? No I didn't and you obviously know that.

Who markets these loans? And who was behind all those credit default swaps and other schemes?

Third, wages have stagnated the last 35 years while productivity has increased. Yes the stimulus was botched for a variety of reasons, one of which being it was too conservative, which several economists warned from the start. That being said, without it things would be much worse than they are now.
Your over exaggerations don't help your case.
 
GOD HERE

GOD HERE

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
Government must first TAKE, before they can do anything. They don't "create" anything or provide services. The government also "creates jobs" by building prisons and hiring thugs to patrol the world. I don't think wealth redistribution by force is an argument for government, do you?

Exportation of labor? So a person should be able to tell a business owner they cannot contract with other people? I'm not a big fan of borders, they inhibit the free movement of goods and services and people.

I don't decry internationalism so much as I decry authoritarianism, nationalism and statism. What other countries do is use the same business model as the USA, they prevent open trade and extort.

Nothing wrong with granola, if that's what you like to eat.
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You're right in one sense. I don't like big bureaucratic government, but what about unchecked unaccountable and undemocratic private industry? You just completely omit half the equation. And you wonder why the government is corrupt and doesn't work? Half of the government is made up of people who are trying to destroy it and then say "Oh well shit I guess it doesn't work.."
 
NLXSK1

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
GOD HERE said:
I'm sorry did I say anything about the minimum wage crashing the economy? No I didn't and you obviously know that.

Who markets these loans? And who was behind all those credit default swaps and other schemes?

Third, wages have stagnated the last 35 years while productivity has increased. Yes the stimulus was botched for a variety of reasons, one of which being it was too conservative, which several economists warned from the start. That being said, without it things would be much worse than they are now.
Your over exaggerations don't help your case.
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Productivity has increased through technology and innovation...

How long have we had the minimum wage? Why hasnt it eliminated wage stagnation? I know, I know.. You are just going to say we havent gone far enough...
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
Government must first TAKE, before they can do anything. They don't "create" anything or provide services. The government also "creates jobs" by building prisons and hiring thugs to patrol the world. I don't think wealth redistribution by force is an argument for government, do you?

Exportation of labor? So a person should be able to tell a business owner they cannot contract with other people? I'm not a big fan of borders, they inhibit the free movement of goods and services and people.

I don't decry internationalism so much as I decry authoritarianism, nationalism and statism. What other countries do is use the same business model as the USA, they prevent open trade and extort.

Nothing wrong with granola, if that's what you like to eat.
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Thank you for your answer. I'm not going to criticize it aside from saying that no, I don't think wealth redistribution is the best solution for inequality. I think that the removal of special privileges which create and perpetuate inequality is a good start and I would wager you agree with this point although you arrive upon it by different means than do I. Where I think you would argue, "it's corporatism, not capitalism", I arrive at this conclusion differently. If the gov't were removed tomorrow, every single bought politician would have a job high in corporate hierarchy and the tyranny present in the current corporatism would accelerate.

This faith in the invisible hand of Adam Smith is religious. Thinking the free-market will fix everything is either misguided or dystopian. The free-market will quite clearly leave millions of people hungry and enshrine privilege. Maybe that sounds nice to you.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Winter Woman said:
The high rate of unemployment among teenagers, and especially black teenagers, is both a scandal and a serious source of social unrest. Yet it is largely a result of minimum wage laws. We regard the minimum wage law as one of the most, if not the most, antiblack laws on the statute books.-Friedman
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in other words, Whiterwoman is saying blacks need to work for less and less and less. in fact, no need to put a price floor on what they may work for.

and you know what, she even has this crazy idea about what black people should work for, she says it has about 175 years of recorded success in this nation, just trust her.

but the White kids need not apply.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Winter Woman said:
The high rate of unemployment among teenagers, and especially black teenagers, is both a scandal and a serious source of social unrest. Yet it is largely a result of minimum wage laws. We regard the minimum wage law as one of the most, if not the most, antiblack laws on the statute books.-Friedman
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Deciphering...

"We want to keep black people in the lowest socioeconomic strata."
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
nontheist said:
Minimum wage did not crash the economy giving irresponsible people large loans did. Trickle up economics doesn't seem to work any better than down.

Lowered the standard of living? Because people can't throw that extra big screen for their bedroom on a credit card they can't afford? It wasn't a new standard of living it was borrowed money and time.

Stagnated wages? Economics 101 during a recession wages will deflate. Compound that with a botched stimulus that spiked inflation and tada welcome to 2013 where you make less money and things cost more. Thank you I think we all see how government utopia works.
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i see you're sticking with an explanation for the recession that it was all just *government being forced to give irresponsible people bad loans.

you don't have a leg to stand on.

fannie and freddie are NGOs. the NG stands for non-governmental.

why don't you go ahead and quote the directive they were given by papa bush and then tell me if you think these non-governmental institutions followed that government directive to give out loans responsibly.

then we can go ahead and ignore glass-steagall repeal, we can ignore the rush to give out these bad loans by non-governmental agencies, we can ignore the bundling of these bad loans and reselling of them and betting against them that were allowed by glass-steagall repeal, we can ignore the credit rating agencies rating this junk as gold, and we can forget everything else.

let's just blame poor people because you're a retarded southern bigot who fucks ugly chicks.

the stimulus worked by the way and inflation is low, you racist fuck.
 
ginwilly

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
Deciphering...

"We want to keep black people in the lowest socioeconomic strata."
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You realize you could raise min wage to 50k a year and poverty will be 60k? Do you think blacks are only capable of working min wage jobs, so we need to raise min wage to help the poor black man? Is that the logic that makes that giant leap?
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Winter Woman said:
You want a better job or more money then learn a trade or arm yourself with a degree that job providers want. Not a ms in social work, history, arts, etc. You may want to be a social worker but guess what most employers don't want that or need it.
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Deciphering...

"Set aside your dreams to make money in the hopes that you can retire and follow them in old age. I beat my kids."
 
ginwilly

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
Deciphering...

"Set aside your dreams to make money in the hopes that you can retire and follow them in old age. I beat my kids."
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Or we could council kids in school that if they want to chase the dream of being an art history major, finding a job in that field may be touch difficult. We could encourage more sciences that other countries are kicking our ass in.

Or you could side with the government and think you can actually create a demand for liberal art grads.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
ginwilly said:
You realize you could raise min wage to 50k a year and poverty will be 60k? Do you think blacks are only capable of working min wage jobs, so we need to raise min wage to help the poor black man? Is that the logic that makes that giant leap?
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Friedman clearly thought black people are suitable only for those jobs.

When did I ever say 50k a year min wage? When was that mentioned in the OP? Why are you coming up with an outrageous number? Is it so you can attack this idea and make it look like your attacking an idea that you did not put forth?

That has a name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_(disambiguation)
 
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