The state of the union address

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dukeofbaja

dukeofbaja

New Member
Not much to disagree with there.

We do have better health care in some respects, ike the specialized areas. But in regards to overall quality, availability, etc....we are #37. We suck. And we do not have universal health care. This needs to change. No reason why our nation should suck so much more than all the other ones that have money.

And I will respectfully disagree with you on government being the anchor that sinks business. I think of government instead as the scalding parent who disciplines their child when they bully other kids (since we are using analogies). But that is a complete values and perception thing that we could never debate our way to a concensus on.

Question for you though: Do you think pure capitalism without governmental regulation, checks, and balances would be a good idea?
 
dukeofbaja

dukeofbaja

New Member
This is a direct quote from your thread about health care myths and reality...

We spend one and a half times more per person, true. But because our health care here is better.

So yes, you did make that statement, although you denied making it just a minute ago.

And what personal anecdotes are you talking about?

And did you ever consider the circumstances that put Obama in a position where he is forced to spend so much? And did you consider the fact that the previous administration took a $200 billion dollar surplus and turned it into a ridiculous deficit? Or the fact that he is committed to reigning in spending after we recover, unlike the previous administration?
 
dukeofbaja

dukeofbaja

New Member
I should not still be posting, I have had too many cold ones tonight. But let me point out one more fact...

In the same amount of time, premiums on health care have doubled while the price of a stamp has only gone up 12 cents. So how awesome are those private health insurers now?

By the way, I still use USPS for all shipping because they are cheaper than Fedex or UPS (at least on the small scale, I do not own a business).

http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/images/HealthPremiumsRiseChart.jpg

http://doanie.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/stamp.jpg
 
CrackerJax

CrackerJax

New Member
dukeofbaja said:
This is a direct quote from your thread about health care myths and reality...

We spend one and a half times more per person, true. But because our health care here is better.

So yes, you did make that statement, although you denied making it just a minute ago.

And what personal anecdotes are you talking about?

And did you ever consider the circumstances that put Obama in a position where he is forced to spend so much? And did you consider the fact that the previous administration took a $200 billion dollar surplus and turned it into a ridiculous deficit? Or the fact that he is committed to reigning in spending after we recover, unlike the previous administration?
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I didn't write it.....although it is in the article posted, true enough.

But pay attention...the WHO studies are designed to come out the way they do... and are presented in a misleading way by media outlets.

To use the existing WHO rankings to justify more government involvement in health care is to engage in circular reasoning because the rankings are designed in a manner that favors greater government involvement.

Of course the 800 pound Gorilla in the room, which no one talks about, is the govt. isn't CAPABLE of IMPROVING health care. Just look around you.... see any efficient govt. programs? Look at the butchers bill on Medicare and Medicaid..... You may get universal health care, but you won't get BETTER care, you'll get WORSE. It will cost more "down the road" (they've pushed the real costs back till it's too late for you to realize you've been had).
 
figtree

figtree

Active Member
CrackerJax said:
Increasing the govt. payrolls and sucking the air out of the private sector room isn't moving forward.... it's backward son.

That's why Obama started at 67% in the polls (ppl DID vote for him after all), and now he is at 47% (now they see what he's really doing, but not you)

That's why 11 MAJOR US companies fled offshore this year.

That's why foreign investment has crawled to a trickle.

That's why business has cut their costs to the bone and yet won't increase their workforces.


because we aren't moving forward..... we're just taking private money and making it public....while the true engine (private) is ignored.
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this is one person's opinion.
and i love it when people read my posts, i even like it when someone can change my mind with some true, factual, information. got any? didnt think so, everything i see touted as fact from the right has been a steaming pile of opinion.

all of this your stating hasnt just happend, unless your just now noticing because your looking for ANY and ALL reasons for America to fail. and blame it on Obama, who, by the way has only been in office 1 year. do we forget? how long has all of this been going on? how long have you been noticing it? how long have you been protesting it? Just started? Yep, just like the rest of the righties....... bandwagon anyone?
 
figtree

figtree

Active Member
dukeofbaja said:
And did you ever consider the circumstances that put Obama in a position where he is forced to spend so much? And did you consider the fact that the previous administration took a $200 billion dollar surplus and turned it into a ridiculous deficit? Or the fact that he is committed to reigning in spending after we recover, unlike the previous administration?
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What about the war in iraq that was kept off the books by the bush admin. thats how the right does their books, with hidden spending. then deny it, and blame the other guys.
 
dukeofbaja

dukeofbaja

New Member
CrackerJax said:
I didn't write it.....although it is in the article posted, true enough.
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So basically you did not auithor the misinformation, you just posted it as if it were a fact. Nice.

And I believe I just pointed out a government run system that runs more efficiently. The cost of a stamp has gone up about 33%, while health insurance premiums went up 100+%. I had a very decent private plan with my employer and would have to wait 3 weeks to see a doctor, without fail. But my Netflix always showed up the next day, thanks to the USPS.

I agree, figtree, lots of short memories out there. How short? Well, the people of Massachussettes basically just shat on the hopes and dreams of their beloved late Senator by voting in the guy who pledges to kill what the late Senator spent his whole career fighting for. Truly sad
 
H

hempcurescancer

Guest
duke, thanks for agreeing with me, but you just cant argue with the jax :-P
 
dukeofbaja

dukeofbaja

New Member
I will point out misinformation and outright lies when I see them, whether they are from CrackerJax or whoever else. I do't like it when people piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Mindmelted, perhaps you were trying to be ironic or perhaps you have limited reading comprehension, but either way please don't try to twist my words. If you want to comment on your dislike of this administration or its legislation, go ahead. Just don't try to make it seem like I said it. Grow up.
 
Mindmelted

Mindmelted

Well-Known Member
So you are the only on who has opinions huh.
And where does it look like you said it,Perhaps you have limited reading comprehension
You seem to be the one who needs to grow up.
 
ViRedd

ViRedd

New Member
1. How does government create wealth?

2. How does government create jobs?

3. If government takes out of the private sector the money to create a government job, haven't they taken the amount needed to create a private sector job?

4. Which entity is more efficient, a private business dependent upon profit derived by giving their customers top-notch service, or a business run by bureaucrats with life-time tenure and no responsibility to earn a profit?
 
H

hempcurescancer

Guest
Personally, I think everybody is a little bit wrong, and a little bit right. That's why internet arguments flourish the way they do, because there's no "one is completely right and the other is completely wrong" Both sides are a little right and a little wrong. Anyone understand what i'm saying? Or did I say right and wrong too much?
 
ViRedd

ViRedd

New Member
hempcurescancer said:
Personally, I think everybody is a little bit wrong, and a little bit right. That's why internet arguments flourish the way they do, because there's no "one is completely right and the other is completely wrong" Both sides are a little right and a little wrong. Anyone understand what i'm saying? Or did I say right and wrong too much?
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Just a guess on my part, but did you go to a school where everyone, from first place, to last place, got a trophy? :lol:
 
I

Illegal Smile

Guest
hempcurescancer said:
Personally, I think everybody is a little bit wrong, and a little bit right. That's why internet arguments flourish the way they do, because there's no "one is completely right and the other is completely wrong" Both sides are a little right and a little wrong. Anyone understand what i'm saying? Or did I say right and wrong too much?
Click to expand...
Internet arguments flourish because they are mainly engaged by people who don't know their assholes from their elbows.
 
CrackerJax

CrackerJax

New Member
I'm sorry, where's the lie again?

No one is saying that there aren't problems with the health care system, but handing it over to the most inefficient sector of the country (the govt.) is INSANITY.

Obama is owned by the TORT lawyers and they increase the price of health care INSURANCE greatly. That's a fix Obama and the Dem Congress WON'T make.

Another way to greatly bring down costs is to allow every US citizen to purchase health insurance from ANY state. Obama is AGAINST this..... why? Because it will actually bring down the cost of health care in the PRIVATE sector.

Can't power grab something that's falling in price can we? So, Obama and Dem's DON'T want to fix Health care insurance ... they want to control it, and the $$$$$$. Wake up.

If any of you think health care will improve under govt. control.... ur a naive lamb and should stay close to your mother.

Costs will go up.... that's GUARANTEED....but the quality will go down.

There's a reason why 400,000 foreigners come to the USA every year for health care. When it counts.... this is the place. the USA outstrips every other country when it comes to having access to the finest and most up to date technology. The ratio of high tech equipment to patients is the best in the world. Ppl literally die in the EU.... WAITING for treatment. The ones that can afford the trip....fly to the states, and have their lives saved.

If I'm not mistaken, a Canadian Premiere just came down to have medical treatment here in the states. Why's that? Canadian newspapers are FULL of ads from AMERICAN doctors along the border.

Why spend ad money for patients in another country?

You know why..... because socialized medicine is a recipe for mediocrity.

And yes, I find ur reasoning to be infantile. (you know who I mean)
 
dukeofbaja

dukeofbaja

New Member
I find myself clearly too wiped out on beer again tonight for my own good. I should probably not reply. Oh well, this is too fun....

Firstly we completely agree that 'There's a reason why 400,000 foreigners come to the USA every year for health care. When it counts.... this is the place. the USA outstrips every other country when it comes to having access to the finest and most up to date technology. '. I have already agreed with you on this point. However, we are losing this advantage rapidly. If you feel like watching an hour long documentary that convinced me of this, here is the link... http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

Secondly, I will blindly grant you your assertion that 'Obama is owned by the TORT lawyers...' but disagree with you that '...they increase the price of health care INSURANCE greatly'. I agree that TORT reform is a good idea, and Obama has offered this to the Republicans as an olive branch of sorts, but TORT reform will not have any significant effect on bending the long term curve of health care costs. In fact, Obama stated this fact in his slaughter-ahem....meeting with the Repblican caucus. Or did you miss that part because Faux News cut away from the GOP bloodbath? The fact is, now that Obama supports it, the right shys away from something they once supported for cheap, short-sighted political gain. And it doesn't help America none at all.

Thirdly, we disagree the most on going across state lines. This would simply lead to insurance companies cherrypicking the healthiest in each state, while the worst off of the worst would get hosed even harder. That is what the private sector does the best, maximize profits through a system of what I lightly call 'raping the public'. Again, Obama discussed this in his meeting with the repubs, take a look.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oIZPAgZzJY&feature=related

Even though that single 10 minute clip rebuts both of your last two points, you should probably bother to watch the whole thing, so you know what you are rallying against. Obama is actually quite centrist compared to most presidents (see previous administration).

Drunken rant over. I should stay away from this shit....
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
ViRedd said:
1. How does government create wealth?

2. How does government create jobs?

3. If government takes out of the private sector the money to create a government job, haven't they taken the amount needed to create a private sector job?

4. Which entity is more efficient, a private business dependent upon profit derived by giving their customers top-notch service, or a business run by bureaucrats with life-time tenure and no responsibility to earn a profit?
Click to expand...

I'm betting nobody will touch these questions. Thanks for raising some good points.
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
hempcurescancer said:
Personally, I think everybody is a little bit wrong, and a little bit right. That's why internet arguments flourish the way they do, because there's no "one is completely right and the other is completely wrong" Both sides are a little right and a little wrong. Anyone understand what i'm saying? Or did I say right and wrong too much?
Click to expand...

Your conciliatory tone is appreciated. It's good to treat people politely.
However, I disagree with the message of everybody being a little right, a little wrong. Do I still get a trophy? :bigjoint:
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
dukeofbaja said:
I should not still be posting, I have had too many cold ones tonight. But let me point out one more fact...

In the same amount of time, premiums on health care have doubled while the price of a stamp has only gone up 12 cents. So how awesome are those private health insurers now?

By the way, I still use USPS for all shipping because they are cheaper than Fedex or UPS (at least on the small scale, I do not own a business).

http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/images/HealthPremiumsRiseChart.jpg

http://doanie.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/stamp.jpg
Click to expand...

You do realize the Post Office is $ billions in debt and they are government subsidized?
 
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