The philosophy thread

[Heisenberg]

Heis meet reddan. My pet name for him is Dunning-Kruger, after the famous study on competence. He doesn't understand logical consistency, the scientific method, rules of debate, and he is unfamiliar with cognitive science, critical thinking and logical fallacies. I have come to the conclusion that he is not interested in discovering the facts of objective reality, instead his goal seems to be to do whatever he can to protect his irrational beliefs that we sheep are all being fooled, but that he is not and has the answers. Most of which lie outside the 'brainwashed mainstream.' You should stop by the moon landing hoax thread in T&T if you ever find yourself out of things to read when on the toilet. I enjoy reading your posts, and witnessing reddan get smacked around, but I feel bad that this is time out of your life that you won't get back...

Heh. I was trying very hard not to use to the term "Dunning--Kruger" because I figured it was just another concept that would be lost on him. I see that you have already had that convo with him. It does sum it up beautifully.

An ignorant mind is precisely not a spotless, empty vessel, but one that’s filled with the clutter of irrelevant or misleading life experiences, theories, facts, intuitions, strategies, algorithms, heuristics, metaphors, and hunches that regrettably have the look and feel of useful and accurate knowledge. What’s curious is that, in many cases, incompetence does not leave people disoriented, perplexed, or cautious. Instead, the incompetent are often blessed with an inappropriate confidence, buoyed by something that feels to them like knowledge.

I didn't know you were into the writings of Pinker and Hofstadter. Strange Loop is an awesome book. Both of them are fans of my page. Check this out.


That's a pic of Douglas driving my co-admin to the bus station after staying with him for a few days. She then got on a bus to my house, stayed for three days, and went on to NY where she met up with Pinker.

 

[tyler.durden]

Heh. I was trying very hard not to use to the term "Dunning--Kruger" because I figured it was just another concept that would be lost on him. I see that you have already had that convo with him. It does sum it up beautifully.

I didn't know you were into the writings of Pinker and Hofstadter. Strange Loop is an awesome book. Both of them are fans of my page. Check this out.
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That's a pic of Douglas driving my co-admin to the bus station after staying with him for a few days. She then got on a bus to my house, stayed for three days, and went on to NY where she met up with Pinker.

Wow! I'm excited to simply have these guys sign my books at conventions, and you guys are like friends. Your partner got to hang with Hofstadter, you, and Pinker all in the same week. That had to be an awesome, mind blowing experience. I love Hofstadter's classic car in that pic, suits him well...

 

[reddan1981]

You two are still cool as fuck and I appreciate your time. TRUTH.

 

[New Age United]

@Heisenberg @Padawanbater2 @tyler.durden
@reddan1981
Do you believe in a conscious universe? If so do you believe there is any connection between universal consciousness and our own? If not do you believe in the clock work universe, an intelligent design at the least? Would very much appreciate your thoughts.

 

[tyler.durden]

I don't think there are good reasons to believe in any of the concepts you listed, as there is no evidence for them...

 

[New Age United]

I don't think there are good reasons to believe in any of the concepts you listed, as there is no evidence for them...

Very good video very good points. Can you explain how the DNA code developed or how it communicates that information with the cell? No way carbon atoms would form the double helix on there own. I know he said there are many examples of where nature seems clever but these are still valid questions.

 

[Padawanbater2]

@Heisenberg @Padawanbater2 @tyler.durden
@reddan1981
Do you believe in a conscious universe? If so do you believe there is any connection between universal consciousness and our own? If not do you believe in the clock work universe, an intelligent design at the least? Would very much appreciate your thoughts.

What do you mean by "a conscious universe" exactly?

 

[New Age United]

What do you mean by "a conscious universe" exactly?

A universe that is aware of cause and effect and is actively and maybe somewhat intelligently affecting the physical bodies of mass which is energy in motion, the relative motion of time in space, as if every single atom is in perfect sequence and the future was already destined long ago. Tyler pretty much proved that the universe is about as intelligent as we are.

 

[New Age United]

By we I mean humanity I know you guys are more intelligent than me I'm definitely not stupid.

 

[tyler.durden]

Very good video very good points. Can you explain how the DNA code developed or how it communicates that information with the cell?

http://www.livescience.com/9546-dna-molecules-display-telepathy-quality.html

Although it looks as if spooky action or telepathic recognition is going on, DNA operates under the laws of physics, not the supernatural.

To understand what researchers conjecture is really happening, think of double helixes of DNA as corkscrews. The bases that make up a strand of DNA each cause the corkscrew to bend one way or the other. Double-stranded DNA with identical sequences each result in corkscrews "whose ridges and grooves match up," said researcher Sergey Leikin, a physical biochemist at the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development in Bethesda, Md.

The electrically charged chains of sugars and phosphates of double helixes of DNA cause the molecules to repel each other. However, identical DNA double helixes have matching curves, meaning they repel each other the least, Leikin explained.

The scientists conjecture such "telepathy" might help DNA molecules line up properly before they get shuffled around. This could help avoid errors in how DNA combines, errors that underpin cancer, aging and other health problems. Also, the proper shuffling of DNA is essential to sexual reproduction, as it helps ensure genetic diversity among offspring, Leikin added.

Leikin and his colleagues will detail their findings in the Jan. 31 issue of the Journal of Physical Chemistry B.

No way carbon atoms would form the double helix on there own.

This is a logical fallacy known as The Argument from Incredulity - http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity

I know he said there are many examples of where nature seems clever but these are still valid questions.

All valid questions, and all easily answered via the use of a reliable search engine...

 

[New Age United]

http://www.livescience.com/9546-dna-molecules-display-telepathy-quality.html

Although it looks as if spooky action or telepathic recognition is going on, DNA operates under the laws of physics, not the supernatural.

To understand what researchers conjecture is really happening, think of double helixes of DNA as corkscrews. The bases that make up a strand of DNA each cause the corkscrew to bend one way or the other. Double-stranded DNA with identical sequences each result in corkscrews "whose ridges and grooves match up," said researcher Sergey Leikin, a physical biochemist at the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development in Bethesda, Md.

The electrically charged chains of sugars and phosphates of double helixes of DNA cause the molecules to repel each other. However, identical DNA double helixes have matching curves, meaning they repel each other the least, Leikin explained.

The scientists conjecture such "telepathy" might help DNA molecules line up properly before they get shuffled around. This could help avoid errors in how DNA combines, errors that underpin cancer, aging and other health problems. Also, the proper shuffling of DNA is essential to sexual reproduction, as it helps ensure genetic diversity among offspring, Leikin added.

Leikin and his colleagues will detail their findings in the Jan. 31 issue of the Journal of Physical Chemistry B.



This is a logical fallacy known as The Argument from Incredulity - http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity




All valid questions, and all easily answered via the use of a reliable search engine...

Thank you very much seriously, I'm imagining a plethora of molecules all shuffling around in a cell and finding the groove and much more naturally forming the double helix. That is an argument from incredulity to the definition sorry after like 6 months I still can't catch myself in the act. I gotta study those bastards and really question my thought process.

 

[Heisenberg]

I do have to say that if the universe does have some sort of intelligent creator, I can totally understand why it hides any evidence of its existence. It created a beautiful and amazing shit hole, where something as precious as a kitten can develop a blockage in its urinary tract and die a slow, painful death. It created life capable of understanding itself, so when that life watches its mother die a horrible lingering death from cancer, it can be fully aware of what is going on. It allowed for diseases like alzheimer's which robs its victims of their very humanity before it kills them.

If I were responsible for such a colossal fuck-up that is the universe, I wouldn't show my face either.

 

[tyler.durden]

I do have to say that if the universe does have some sort of intelligent creator, I can totally understand why it hides any evidence of its existence. It created a beautiful and amazing shit hole, where something as precious as a kitten can develop a blockage in its urinary tract and die a slow, painful death. It created life capable of understanding itself, so when that life watches its mother die a horrible lingering death from cancer, it can be fully aware of what is going on. It allowed for diseases like alzheimer's which robs its victims of their very humanity before it kills them.

If I were responsible for such a colossal fuck-up that is the universe, I wouldn't show my face either.

Fucking lol!

 

[tyler.durden]

Thank you very much seriously, I'm imagining a plethora of molecules all shuffling around in a cell and finding the groove and much more naturally forming the double helix. That is an argument from incredulity to the definition sorry after like 6 months I still can't catch myself in the act. I gotta study those bastards and really question my thought process.

It took me a long time to integrate the informal logical fallacies into my thought process, and I still catch myself falling for them from time to time. Even my 14 yo catches me using them and calls me out. I say, 'good catch', and we both just laugh. It's simply a matter of practice, and even then one must always stay vigilant. Our minds weren't really built for this logic and reason shit

 

[New Age United]

I do have to say that if the universe does have some sort of intelligent creator, I can totally understand why it hides any evidence of its existence. It created a beautiful and amazing shit hole, where something as precious as a kitten can develop a blockage in its urinary tract and die a slow, painful death. It created life capable of understanding itself, so when that life watches its mother die a horrible lingering death from cancer, it can be fully aware of what is going on. It allowed for diseases like alzheimer's which robs its victims of their very humanity before it kills them.

If I were responsible for such a colossal fuck-up that is the universe, I wouldn't show my face either.

I never said anything about the conscience of god, if there is a supreme creator IMHO it is a sick sadistic being that created humanity just to watch us suffer. But I do not equate a conscious universe with a supreme being, I perceive an awareness of present action and Presently affecting the physical mass, absolutely no perception of good or evil. Though tyler really just struck it deep and I'm beginning to intuit that maybe the universe is more natural if viewed without a conscious director, just cause and effect, action and reaction taking place, it just is what it is.

 

[Heisenberg]

I never said anything about the conscience of god, if there is a supreme creator IMHO it is a sick sadistic being that created humanity just to watch us suffer. But I do not equate a conscious universe with a supreme being, I perceive an awareness of present action and Presently affecting the physical mass, absolutely no perception of good or evil. Though tyler really just struck it deep and I'm beginning to intuit that maybe the universe is more natural if viewed without a conscious director, just cause and effect, action and reaction taking place, it just is what it is.

Oh I realize your question left room for something other than an intelligent creator. I was simply offering a rant.


Who's up for a round of "name the logical fallacy"?

 

[New Age United]

Oh I realize your question left room for something other than an intelligent creator. I was simply offering a rant.


Who's up for a round of "name the logical fallacy"?

Excuse my ignorance heisenberg I am trying to learn. You know I bet that less than 20% of people even know what the logical fallacies are.

 

[Heisenberg]

I'm asking if you guys want to play the fallacy game. I give you three unrelated arguments, all of which employ different versions of the same fallacy, and you tell me what it is.

 

[New Age United]

I'm asking if you guys want to play the fallacy game. I give you thee unrelated arguments, all of which employ different versions of the same fallacy, and you tell me what it is.

For sure sounds like a good way to enforce them in my mind. I might not be too keen but will definately pay attention.

 

[Heisenberg]

That's cool. The point of the fallacy game is to spark discussion more so than to test knowledge. The exact categorization for some fallacies is still very much open for debate, so it's good to explore and talk about them.

I feel I should probably start a new thread so as not to derail the discussion here. I'll post a link to it shortly.