The Falcons OG #18, K-Train, LA Confidential RDWC Grow. Looking for advice.

Hi, everyone havent been able to post for a little while, had some internet issues. so I got the setup up and running but not going as expected. I started to germ the seeds on the 22nd of last month. the first two that cracked were the OG and the LA. the Ktrains were slow to start and only 3 of the 4 germed so I had to start a replacement which was a pure gold seed that was pollinated by my NL hermi just to see what happens their. all of the seeds have been in the system about 7-10 days and growth is not waht I seen on the last grow I did even though its basically the same theory. not one of them have any roots showing that I can see and the growth is very slow if not stopped. my ph has been 5.6 -5.8 the whole time never needing any adjustment, no nutes yet, room temps are 75-82, water temps are 72-75, and the humidity is low ranging from 30-45%. the only things that I can see being a issue is the low humidity and maybe the system is overwatering maybe. but I am using the same pump as last time and never had a problem with that before.what do you guys think is it low humidy or overwatering or maybe these kush strains are just slow starters. but the pg/nl cross was germed a week later and caught right up to the rest but then its like time froze I havent seen any substantial grow in about 3 or 4 days and for some reason the one ktrain will not straighten out it stands on its own just fine as all do but its like that one decided to grow upside down or something. all thoughts appreciated.

Low humidity could be it. I just added a humidifier to my grow and it perked them up but the growth in my experimental e&f is not what I want yet. But then again, I've haven;t added nutes yet since I had a mismatch of seed popping times like you did.

That being said, as you say the genetics could just be slow. I've read a bunch of reports on Kush being a little slow out of the blocks. Assuming you plants are in rockwool, can you check occasionally to see the wettness of the rw? Do you think your are getting even distribution to all pots?

I know this doesn't answer but I'd be really interested in how this goes. If I expand this may be the way I go.

for the most part the distribution seems to be pretty consistant but not exactly the same as some are a little more wet than others but they dont seem to be over saturated to me but Im no expert. thanks for the reply.

OH Dys! We Need you!

growing the ogkush 18 myself
have 10 seedlings about 2.5 weeks away from flowering

Wow, talk about pressure! I love your setup, it looks like a 4' X 4' room with what I assume is a 600-watt light? And it looks like you've got 6 (well-insulated ) buckets; but I'm trying to figure out how it works. It looks like a basic DWC modified for Bubbleponics with an external manifold feeding into the top of the buckets; since I don't see any overflow tubing I'm guessing the lines coming from the bottom are used for leveling and the water pump is in one of the buckets? If not, then how do you prevent overflow? Just curious...

Anyways, since you're an experienced grower I'm sure you've got the basics down (water and air temp, pH, humidity, etc.), no need to cover that stuff. In all likelihood it's just strain-related, like MC says. If it's not, then I can only think of a few things that might slow growth.

First, like I said, I'm guessing you're using a 600-watt full-spectrum HPS (because of the reddish natural lighting). I only bring up the light because it looks like some of the seedlings are stretchy, especially the ones furthest from the center of the light. Do you always set up your seedlings at the periphery of the lights? Or are you maybe doing it like this because of the system? Besides not getting enough light, another thing that might cause them to be stretchy and slow-growing is not getting enough blue light. Just a thought.

Another thing that can stunt growth is over-watering. It doesn't look like they're over-watered, but if you think this might be the case you could put the water pump on a timer - say 30 minutes on/30 minutes off - to give the roots a good chance to breath.

Finally, you could try kick-starting them with a taste of nutrients, maybe 150ppm's worth, especially if you are using RO or distilled water.

That's all I could think of...

Thanks for the response Dys. you got the setup figured right, I am running a 600w hortilux hps with a quantum ballast that is dimmable so right now it is just on the 450w setting. the system has the one res with the sub pump that runs to each netcup and the lines that you see on the bottom hook all the buckets to the res. the whole thing then relies on pressure to circulate back to the res and maintain consistant water levels.

the system as a whole seems to be working fine. I tried to set it up a couple of different ways in the room and this seemed to be the most mangeable in my eyes. I was hopeing with the 600w that there wouldnt be a light coverage issue but there seems to be just a little at the moment. hopefully once I raise the light some more and kick it up to the full 600w it will be alright.

maybe next time I should start my seedlings in my 6 site DIY tote and transfer them once their good and rooted so I can maintain better light coverage from the start. Id rather not have to do this though if I can get it to go like this. my thoughts when setting it up were to try and better acheive plant spacing. I also didnt like having everything in one tank especially when the plants got bigger it was a pain to deal with in my op. thats what lead me to bulding this setup in the first place.

I also had the same thoughts on the nutes earlier so I mixed up a half of teaspoon of floranova in the res which puts it right at 150ppm. Ill let that run for a while and maybe do the same thing for the next couple of days slowly. I dont want my res pumping them solution any highr than that for the moment so Ill take it slow not allowing the res solution to feed them too many ppms.

all in all I think the function of the setup is going to work out great. the only thing thats really got me is I dont see any roots yet and that really bothers me. maybe they are just some slow starters hopefully they take off soon though my nerves cant handle this insoboardnance. lol I dont think I spelled that right.

Yeah, I would bump the light up to 600-watts since the seedlings aren't directly underneath it. I'm guessing you're just in the quiet before the storm, they'll probably be 3 times as big in a week.

Ha, that setup looks perfect for a vertically hung bulb. There's no question you got the skills to make just about anything you wanted...

yeah I was thinking about that vertical Idea. actually I got another ballast and arcticsun aircooled hood thats identical to what Im running. I picked up the ballast just to have a spare if ever need be and I got a really good deal on the hood so maybe Ill throw that in their too and run anywhere from 600w to 1200w. I dont think I could cool much more than the 600w thats already in their though. you think the little things could handle the 600w right now?

polishfalcon420 said:

yeah I was thinking about that vertical Idea. actually I got another ballast and arcticsun aircooled hood thats identical to what Im running. I picked up the ballast just to have a spare if ever need be and I got a really good deal on the hood so maybe Ill throw that in their too and run anywhere from 600w to 1200w. I dont think I could cool much more than the 600w thats already in their though. you think the little things could handle the 600w right now?

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Well, if you want to get technical then you need about 2500 – 3000 lumens to reach the saturation point of a seedling. The saturation point is the point at which the leaves are receiving all the light they can use for photosynthesis (the engine for growth). Anything less than the saturation point will result in slower growth and possibly stretching; any more will not necessarily hurt them (if heat is not an issue), they just won’t be able to use it – kind of like overfilling your gas tank, the excess just drains to the ground.

A 450-watt bulb is producing 2500 lumens about 22” from the bulb. So if your seedlings are more than 22” from the bulb they won’t be growing as fast as they could be. A 600-watt bulb produces 2500 lumens about 27” from the bulb.

If the light level falls to the compensation point – the light level where the plants are not receiving enough energy to sustain growth – then the plants will basically use all their energy to try to stretch to the light. Everything else – leaf and root growth, etc. – is stopped. Eventually, the plant topples over and dies. The compensation point is somewhere around 1000 lumens, which is about 35” for a 450-watt, and 40” for a 600-watt light.

So if you are using a 450-watt light you would want to have the seedlings somewhere between 22” to 35” from the light: the closer to 22” the more growth potential; the closer to 36” the less growth and more stretching. A 600-watt bulb should be between 27” to 40” from the seedlings.

These numbers are based on my interpretation of what I’ve researched, and could be off (by a lot, depending on the state of mind I was in at the time) so use your common-sense filter. The light levels required can also vary by strain. But remember, too much light (within reason, and if heat isn’t an issue) is better than not enough. Just for comparison, I stick my 250-watt MH light (in a cool tube) about 8" above the tops of my seedlings.

And advancing that thought, do the plants then grow to the light to cover the needed distance? It's good this came up since I now have a 400 hps I plan on using later. I was going to use the hand test but come to think of it that would not apply with a 400 in a vented cool tube. I'm in learn mode!

I bump up the light and have it about 16in above the seedlings. I think I can get by with that my ventilation is pretty descent so you can literally put your hand on the glass of the hood and not even get close to being burned. once you get your hand about 8in away you cant even feel any heat being put off by the bulb. the LA Confidential has some yellowing going on with the first set of leaves, the cotyledons look fine but the first actual leaves are yellowing. I dont know, we'll see what happens eh.

That's pretty normal. It's really an indication that you are slightly undernuting if all other things are right. Robbin for Peter to pay Paul. It robs for the lower leaves to feed the new growth. Some yellowing means just barely. Those cotyledons have a mind of their own! LOL!

well I just unloaded one of the netcups and found that the bottom 2/3's of the rockwool cubes were soaked the weight of it was 50g. I think it may be some overwatering. I also found no roots coming out of the rockwool anywhere. so for right now I shut the feeder pump off to let them dry out some. how long do you guys think I should do this for and should I take off the pot covers to help them dry out quicker or what.

polishfalcon420 said:

I bump up the light and have it about 16in above the seedlings. I think I can get by with that my ventilation is pretty descent so you can literally put your hand on the glass of the hood and not even get close to being burned. once you get your hand about 8in away you cant even feel any heat being put off by the bulb. the LA Confidential has some yellowing going on with the first set of leaves, the cotyledons look fine but the first actual leaves are yellowing. I dont know, we'll see what happens eh.

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Sounds good, so long as the distance between each seedling top and the light bulb is about 24" they should be getting plenty of light. Sounds like they want some nutes, too...

thats cool, how long do you think I should let the cubes dry out before I set the pump back up on a timer?

MostlyCrazy said:

And advancing that thought, do the plants then grow to the light to cover the needed distance? It's good this came up since I now have a 400 hps I plan on using later. I was going to use the hand test but come to think of it that would not apply with a 400 in a vented cool tube. I'm in learn mode!

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Sure, but they don't "grow" to the light - remember, they aren't getting enough light to grow - they "stretch" to the light like a rubber band. I think a seedling has enough stored energy to get to the point where they're starting their first leaves. If they don't get enough energy from light after that they'll stop growing and start stretching.

The compensation point is really the point at which the plant is getting just enough light energy to sustain the mass it currently has. That's why leaves that aren't getting enough light eventually die and fall off - they aren't creating as much food - via photosyntheis - as they're using for respiration. So the plant gets rid of them, they're just draining energy to keep them alive.

polishfalcon420 said:

thats cool, how long do you think I should let the cubes dry out before I set the pump back up on a timer?

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I'll let MC answer that as he's more experienced with Bubbleponics.

Ok Dys, so it by feel and what your plant tells you. No stretch is good! Lots of stretch is bad! LOL!

On the pump timer thing, BP doesn't turn off the pump unless you have root in the water and then you just remove the pump so I'm no help on how long to dry them out. To me they have to be slightly moist on top and then everyting is cool. You touch them and you don't have enough moisture to wet a stamp, it's time to get some water on them.

ok, so the one pot that I unloaded was drentched on the bottom 2/3s and the seedling that was in it just slid right out of the rockwool and has virtually no root growth at all. so now guys help me get back to the basics here. I need to concentrate on establishing roots. is this issue more likely from the stretching or overwatering? this particular seedling is not stretched that much I wouldnt think so I am leaning towards the overwatering side of things. man Ive never had such a time with seedlings.