The Case For Regular Seeds

SODreamsB

Member
The male Cannabis plant gets a bad rap with many people, hence its caused the creation of the feminized seed industry. While there may be some practical and useful reasons for feminized seeds for many people there are some draw backs that don't commonly get discussed.

Firstly so everyone reading this is on the same page I want to list and define some botany terminology:


Dioecy or being Dioecious: The characteristic of a species having a distinctly different and separate male and female organisms (i.e. male and female flowers on separate plants).

Monoecy or being Monoecious: A single organism possessing both a distinct male and female flower at the same time

Self-incompatability: This is a common 'mechanism' of flowering plants that prevents them from being pollinated by themselves in favor of out-crossing to preserve some form of genetic diversity.


So Cannabis as a plant is primarily Dioecious, male and female (already rare) but it is also capable of becoming Monoecious, male and female flowers on the same plant (more rare) when stressed or when Males are not available.

Many plants that are Monoecious have the trait of self-incompatibility, or for example Avocados which have a single flower that for a period of time is male and puts out pollen, then turns female later on to receive another plants pollen.

Why are there all these anti self pollination mechanisms you might ask well, because if a plant becomes pollinated by itself, its seed offspring will be the genetic clones of itself which result in a lack of diversity as well as the high potential for mutated or undesirable recessive traits to become prevalent thereby weakening the plant in the future.

Cannabis has either lost its ability to prevent self pollinating, or didn't have it to begin with so that aside how does it work? Genetic testing has shown us that the male Y chromosome (which has two arms a long and a short) binds to the female X chromosome on the short arm. This is significant because the male associated genetic marker is located on the long arm of the Y chromosome, which explains why a female "Y" gene can successfully bind to a true female X gene, as the marker for Male does not make contact. Ref-A1

This could have simply happened purely randomly or was perhaps (and more likely) spurred by environmental stresses that prevented male pollen from spreading and fertilizing female flowers. Either way, this is clearly meant as an extreme/adverse condition survival mechanism to prevent the species from completely dying out.

So...what happens when you force such a mechanism to be expressed, repeatedly? well primarily you lose diversity pretty quickly, which to many who enjoy a specific strain of Cannabis and its traits might appear to be a bonus but you also weaken the plant and increase the chances of adverse mutations occurring through lack of genetic diversity. Ref-B1

In contrast with a selective breeding program you can still preserve your desired traits, it might take a few generations of plants but then you have a much stronger and healthier plant for the future, as well as the possibility for new random expressions that could be even better i.e. a new phenotype.

Let's look at an example: Bananas, specifically the common yellow 'Cavendish', they have been mass produced from clones which is essentially the same thing as a self pollinated "feminized" female cannabis plant.

The Cavendish is the 'classic' yellow banana you see everywhere however they are entirely vulnerable to a fungus (fusarium oxysporum) born wilting disease that kills them and spreads very easily. They have no resistance to this and attempts to stop the outbreak of this in Asia have been unsuccessful. All it would take is for this fungus to spread to the other locations where Cavendish bananas are growing and they could all disappear. Which as it turns out has happened before with the Gros Michel or "Big Mike" banana variety which nearly went extinct in 1950 except for a few small isolated areas, which was when Cavendish bananas replaced that variety. Currently the only remaining wild banana plants (which there are only a handful of left) are on the isolated island of Madagascar, which researchers are hoping to breed with the Cavendish to increase genetic variety for a chance of developing a new banana strain with resistance to this fungus based disease. Ref-A2


So its not a stretch to imagine that in the future if feminized plants are allowed to take over, we will continue to lose genetic diversity as they WILL at some point be crossed with each other in attempts to get new genetics. The more times these crosses happen, the more similar all the remaining plants will become, the possibility of losing the male genetics is there as well and once its lost you can't get it back.

Imagine a future where there is so little diversity in Cannabis plants that given the rise of a destructive and highly resistant fungus, it could be all but entirely wiped out. No more Cannabis for anyone then along with all its benefits, except maybe synthetic pharmaceuticals and we all know the problems with those.


Just in case genetic diversity and overall plant health aren't good enough for you, here are some other interesting facts about the male Cannabis plant.



1. Male plants also contain CBD, THC, Terpenes (everything the females contain, just in lower levels) So not only can you still use the males and or make extracts (CannaButter), there's no reason why it isn't possible to selectively breed males for higher THC or CBD content as well. It's simply that no one has really done it since it was primarily believed that only females contained active compounds. Thus "not being able to get high" from a male is a myth. Ref-A3

Also due to the differing ratios of cannabinoids, there is anecdotal evidence out there to suggest the effect is more ‘high’ than ‘stoned’, and can be enjoyably cerebral. Ref- A4

There's also the high likelihood for male plants to flower, and therefor be harvested faster than females. Ref-A5

2. Anecdotal/historical wisdom states that male plants although not as strong as female fibers, have finer more flexible fibers (and produce more of them by up to 30%) than females and are thus capable of producing 'higher quality' and softer or 'finer' textiles.

3. You can use your male plants for eating/juicing to get additional health benefits from consuming fresh greens. (Or shred the fresh leaves to use as top dressing then water to act as a natural nitrogen booster/fertilizer for your females, or just mix the mashed leaves with water, strain out plant material and use as a tea).

4. You can rather easily and efficiently produce your own seeds with males, and no longer be dependent on buying seeds from an outside source.

5. Again, you are helping to preserve the entire genetic makeup and ensuring the long term survival of your favorite plant by keeping male genes alive.





References:
Ref-B1: https://phys.org/news/2015-01-affirms-sexual-reproduction-mutations.html
Ref-A1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11202435
Ref-A2: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-44712034
Ref-A3: https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/bulletin/bulletin_1971-01-01_1_page006.html
Ref-A4: https://sensiseeds.com/en/blog/males-useless-think/
Ref-A5: https://dev.purduehemp.org/hemp-production/
 
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SODreamsB

Member
I quite enjoyed this. Very refreshing from the "hate the males" rhetoric circulating everywhere, not just with cannabis lol. Thank you.
Thanks, I had already formed all the general ideas but spent the extra time collecting references to back it up so it didn't just come off as purely my own speculation and really wanted to share it so more people get into keeping their favorite plants strong and healthy for the long term.

The male plants can be pretty interesting in their own way and I think another big reason that people have mostly pushed them away is due to all the stupid laws and limits on plants or limited space then everyone just gets drowned in all the marketing for feminized seeds and think it's the only way to go.

You could say in a way that prohibition has caused some suffering/strain on the plant itself as well in that regard.
 
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Covetsculitvars

Well-Known Member
Right but it's a good place for a noob to soak his roots brother..........don't even get me going on cavendish varieties now going down quickly to the orig fungus that got the main varieties...........have a relative who told me my great grandpa John worked for the royal botanical society in New York and London in the early 1900's ......apparently older varieties of bananas were much tastier with humungous seeds. I was watching a pbs special on plants communicating ...there's a varietal that shoots trichromes which entice its pests to eat.....soon as the pests eat the glandular trich head it makes them reek....which this pests predators detect with ease and come running to remove the plants pests......I wish I knew enough to incorporate this type of pest management onto cannabis....
 

SODreamsB

Member
Pot plants are grown in small gardens scattered about all over the world. They are not mega monocrops like a banana plantation. Sorry but the author is exagerating a bit.
I don't see how its an exaggeration, bananas are just an example of what can happen when there is a lack of genetic diversity, and if a resistant disease were to emerge you would have a much harder time dealing with it.

Since fungi are air borne it doesn't matter if its a big mono-crop or a small garden, it only takes a few spores and they can travel impressively far and wide.

I'm just trying to highlight the value of preserving the male 50% of the Cannabis genetics for increased resilience, because if everyone goes feminized and it keeps going that way for a long enough period of time, something like that happening becomes more plausible.

I don't see the long term value in limiting your gene pool just for the sake of a bit a short term gain, I'm not saying feminized should just go away necessarily its just important not to lose the regular seeds and males.
 

NirvanaMesa

Well-Known Member
No it doesnt. Theres plenty of regular seeds being used. And look how many strains are out there.

Its not at all like a mono cop of bananas all grown in one location.

Sure genetic diversity in pot is good and female seeds and selfing plants has negative consequences. But it is not going to end up like the banana situation. Thats just not accurate.
 

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
SODreamsB,

Good post, i like regular seeds too. Can understand the appeal of feminized seeds, respect their appeal, but prefer regulars for sure.

Used to like when the majority of weed was outdoor, and growers selected plants, then open pollinated.
Something that now, for the most part is lost imho.

Most just want the quick dollar. Barely any regular seed on the market now, in comparison to feminized and auto's.

Have my own gripes with feminized seed in the way they're made. Just doesn't sit well with me, but i can't blame a lot of growers wanting to use them.

Here's hoping one day regular seeds are the norm again.
 

SODesiresB

Member
SODreamsB,

Good post, i like regular seeds too. Can understand the appeal of feminized seeds, respect their appeal, but prefer regulars for sure.

Used to like when the majority of weed was outdoor, and growers selected plants, then open pollinated.
Something that now, for the most part is lost imho.

Most just want the quick dollar. Barely any regular seed on the market now, in comparison to feminized and auto's.

Have my own gripes with feminized seed in the way they're made. Just doesn't sit well with me, but i can't blame a lot of growers wanting to use them.

Here's hoping one day regular seeds are the norm again.


I agree with this, I think if you walk into a seed bank you should be able to see an equal amount of seeds an not just by personal choice. I also think that to much focus is on the bananas when that's not the point of this post.
 

SODreamsB

Member
No it doesnt. Theres plenty of regular seeds being used. And look how many strains are out there.

Its not at all like a mono cop of bananas all grown in one location.

Sure genetic diversity in pot is good and female seeds and selfing plants has negative consequences. But it is not going to end up like the banana situation. Thats just not accurate.
I just want to re iterate that I was highlighting the potential for large losses due to lack of diversity and that it is a plausible scenario, it would both require a lot of time and a lot of elements coming together. It doesn't necessarily mean it would go extinct entirely but if its population is low enough its not much different, especially if most areas are contaminated with disease, so that if you tried to grow there it would become infected and ultimately die.

You're obsessing over bananas and mono-crops too much, that was just a real world example of what can happen with a lack of diversity which is the key denominator here, loss of diversity. Being a mono crop is irrelevant they have no diversity and therefor have no chance of defending themselves faced with a pandemic.

The main point is that it is PLAUSIBLE it could happen especially if people stop working with regular seeds and male plants, and this is just meant to highlight their value.


I have personally noticed that regular seeds are becoming less and less common from multiple sources and certain strains are difficult to find at all in anything other than a feminized form. Assuming there's plenty of regular seeds out there and not worrying about it is how you start to lose strains and variety.

Also pointing to the number of strains is irrelevant as many strains are either crossed with or an isolated phenotype of a common ancestor, like any of the IBL (in bred landrace) strains.
How many strains out there do you think have multiple genes in common with the Afghani and if that heritage also carried a latent weakness anything with Afghani heritage could be susceptible, just as another example.

There's any number of possible outcomes, this why there are also a number of major global seedbank projects to preserve as much plant life genetics as possible for any potential disaster. Eliminating half of a species out of convenience might suit you well enough but from a preservation and longevity aspect isn't ideal, which is the central theme here. Since I am also interested in preservation.
 
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Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
I agree with this, I think if you walk into a seed bank you should be able to see an equal amount of seeds an not just by personal choice. I also think that to much focus is on the bananas when that's not the point of this post.
Agreed,

It annoys me lol. Browse the online catalogue, "oh wow, that strain looks good, wonder if it sells in regs? Nope".

They know exactly what they're doing, not giving out males too.

It's monsanto without the monsanto.

But again, can totally understand why they're so popular. Very useful in their own way.
 

SODesiresB

Member
I just want to re iterate that I was highlighting the potential for large losses due to lack of diversity and that it is a plausible scenario, it would both require a lot of time and a lot of elements coming together. It doesn't necessarily mean it would go extinct entirely but if its population is low enough its not much different, especially if most areas are contaminated with disease, so that if you tried to grow there it would become infected and ultimately die.

You're obsessing over bananas and mono-crops too much, that was just a real world example of what can happen with a lack of diversity which is the key denominator here, loss of diversity. Being a mono crop is irrelevant they have no diversity and therefor have no chance of defending themselves faced with a pandemic.

The main point is that it is PLAUSIBLE it could happen especially if people stop working with regular seeds and male plants, and this is just meant to highlight their value.


I have personally noticed that regular seeds are becoming less and less common from multiple sources and certain strains are difficult to find at all in anything other than a feminized form. Assuming there's plenty of regular seeds out there and not worrying about it is how you start to lose strains and variety.

Also pointing to the number of strains is irrelevant as many strains are either crossed with or an isolated phenotype of a common ancestor, like any of the IBL (in bred landrace) strains.
How many strains out there do you think have multiple genes in common with the Afghani and if that heritage also carried a latent weakness anything with Afghani heritage could be susceptible, just as another example.

There's any number of possible outcomes, this why there are also a number of major global seedbank projects to preserve as much plant life genetics as possible for any potential disaster. Eliminating half of a species out of convenience might suit you well enough but from a preservation and longevity aspect isn't ideal, which is the central theme here. Since I am also interested in preservation.

BOOM AND THE FIREWORKS GO POPPIN!
 

SODreamsB

Member
SODreamsB,

Good post, i like regular seeds too. Can understand the appeal of feminized seeds, respect their appeal, but prefer regulars for sure.

Used to like when the majority of weed was outdoor, and growers selected plants, then open pollinated.
Something that now, for the most part is lost imho.

Most just want the quick dollar. Barely any regular seed on the market now, in comparison to feminized and auto's.

Have my own gripes with feminized seed in the way they're made. Just doesn't sit well with me, but i can't blame a lot of growers wanting to use them.

Here's hoping one day regular seeds are the norm again.

Yes, there are definitely less regular seeds the experience I had that made me want to post something about it even more was going to a shop in person and all they push is feminized seeds. They carry something like 200 fem. seeds and have exactly 4 regular ones, keeping in mind this is all they carry. When I've asked about it they say they have no motivation to carry any other regular seeds since 98% of their sales are feminized.

The stupidity of the fact that of course they will be 98% of your sales if that's 98% of what you carry aside, it just came off to me as being really ignorant and its an attitude that I've been seeing a lot.

People are inherently greedy and always want the biggest benefit to themselves, they don't too often consider what might also benefit whatever they are producing. Which is a shame since that's how problems start if everyone could be a little more mindful and considerate of things besides themselves I think it would provide a multitude of benefits.
 

Schwagg#12

Well-Known Member
Alot of strains don't have a true male unless they have been backcrossed.
Say you get a killer bag of unknown,then find 1 seed and it's female.Then you name it , sorry someone wants a seed but you have a don't true male of that cultivar.
 

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
I enjoyed your write up and references as well, i feel they miss some futher consideration which is species specific -

Mj has genetic survival longterm tactics as do all plants, its goal is not to evolve but to stay the same - its genetics echo this and ia not even remotely susceptable to mutation unlike a bannana.

Some peeps troll some weak ass genetic theory which dosent represent the fact this plant has sat isolated for eons in mountain passes and valleys unable to evolve or find new genetics and thus forth strengthened and learnt to diversify within itself.

The plant can actually beat being bottlenecked if just a few survive, it has before many times in very bad decades only to proliferate.

I use to think as the op but god damn this plant has had millions of years of being unchanged to develop the answer.

Amazing how a strain kept isolated for so long crossed with another from such a distant genetic make up yet simply make the same old boring looking weed plants when crossed - zero evolution :-)
 

SODesiresB

Member
I am placing my two cents here.
When I walk into a hydroponics store or seed bank I don't want sass on why feminized seeds is the way to go Im not looking for a fast quick high or to make the most money.
I actually find the growing process very exiting to watch and to see how many of the same seeds you get in a pack can grow to be all different from one another.
I also don't think it's right to have hate on a persons choice to grow whatever they want but I also don't get why it seems to be teams here like in stupid twilight ie are you team regular or team feminized.

I think it is important to take a step back and actually appreciate that we all have this wonderful plant and give it the well deserved respect it should get and just admire the true beauty in it. All of us should try our best to keep this plant in the best condition we can and just accept every little seed and what it has to offer. you know just give it a little hug and thank the plant !
get with the trend and say its the spark of your joy ! (literally)
 
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