The Bonafide Dr/Pt Relationship- Pitfalls to Avoid in Certifications

I'm starting to think its better to not have a card and go off grid. At least you wouldn't have a false sense of security. Nothing would be worse than being a law abiding patient or a caregiver and then lose your house and end up in jail. The person with the card didn't do anything wrong. LARA issued the card, doctors reviewed and approved.

TheMan13 said:

You and your lawyers have a problem with your competitors and their lawyers as you fight over your subjective interpretations of MMMA and lobby our government to codify your subjective interpretations into law as innocent people are clearly being hurt, NOT your competitors and you. In my profession we called that collateral damage and often gave our lives to ensure it didn't occur. I'm simply trying to point out the facts of the matter here from an educated and objective point of view that you clearly lack. As for my opinion, your lawyers and you are nothing more than costly parasites on our society ...

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That's exactly what happens people are reduced to collateral damage.

For the record, I've been in favor of legalization for years. http://www.drbobmmj.com/dr-bob-s-blog/111-why-i-favor-legalization.html That was 2012 and just recently I helped sponsor research with Norml to get it on the ballot in 2016. Once again, going off half cocked without checking facts. And by the way, MMJ is only a small part of what I do, and I'll be churning along well into retirement years. Have a nice day pecker.

Dr.Pecker said:

I'm starting to think its better to not have a card and go off grid. At least you wouldn't have a false sense of security. Nothing would be worse than being a law abiding patient or a caregiver and then lose your house and end up in jail. The person with the card didn't do anything wrong. LARA issued the card, doctors reviewed and approved.

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still have to see the doc or you make losing in court a certainty. Great logic there....lol

You come on a public medical marijuana forum admitting you helped pass legislation that is responsible for putting some medical marijuana patients in jail. Then you start spamming your practice saying give me your money or go to jail. These people have a card and believe they are legal, they did nothing wrong and you say its their fault for not investigating the Dr?

Did you even read what was written Dr. Pecker, or grasp the fact that the comment about the lawyer was specifically directed at Proctor and the others mentioned?

Patients have been told what to look for in a clinic. Buyer Beware is the only thing said about patients.

Physicians have a obligation to follow the law and should know exactly what is required to do certifications or they should not do them.

The State set up rules and failed to follow through and enforce them. A clear example is Proctor, it has been known for years he does substandard certifications without following the bonafide dr/pt relationship, this has been in the news and in court repeatedly. This is just one of MANY cases showing that and I put up a link to another. The state should have stopped him before THIS patient was hurt.

Direct your anger at the right person.

Dr. Bob

Dr.Pecker said:

I'm starting to think its better to not have a card and go off grid. At least you wouldn't have a false sense of security. Nothing would be worse than being a law abiding patient or a caregiver and then lose your house and end up in jail. The person with the card didn't do anything wrong. LARA issued the card, doctors reviewed and approved.

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The worst is losing your kid to the system. Losing your house pales by comparasion.

Very true NN and it happens all too often.

It's a war (the Drug War) and millions have lost their lives to it over the past century. But in reality it's nothing more than Lawfare created, maintained and profited by protected classes: LEO, courts, prisons, lawyers, bureaucrats, etc. What we have here with MMMP are a couple more protected classes with Pot Docs & LARA. If they were held criminally culpable as accessories for these technicalities that endanger patients and caregivers, their lawyers and profits would end this game quickly.

Think about it, if your patient X received his cert from Dr. Proctor (wrongfully per Dr. Bob) and LARA (whom doesn't care) approves and provides you a caregiver licence, HIPAA guarantees your none the wiser to your many counts of felonies (per Dr. Bob and those whom subscribe to his legal interpretation) ...

Gee for awhile I thought the same, don't get a MM card, just go underground and this way nobody can prove U use MM. However a few things have changed, one is we have the OK to have a trace of MM in our blood and still be OK to drive. The state supreme court ruled that MM people are not covered under Michigan zero tolerance law ..no we can't drive while high--under the influence but nobody can say we are breaking the law by driving with traces of MM in our bodies.

Other states / countries also take MM in to account, they don't allow us to carry or use MM but if they smell traces of in, maybe in your luggage or on your clothes, they can understand that in Michigan U have this right to use MM. Least thats been my limited experience.

My MM card saved me once so far some grief, how much I don't know, I do know that one officer did not seem too pleased with me once I stated I was a medical user, yet the other officers were fine with me and they moved me along like I did nothing wrong

It works and protects people all the time. For the life of me I don't understand why pecker doesn't get that and insists that someone I am in agreement with the idea of putting patients in jail. The court case speaks for itself, and that is the way it is. Agree with it or not, it doesn't change things.

Hopefully the state medical board will take care of Proctor. But if they don't and folks keep giving him cash, this will happen again.

Buyer beware.

TheMan13 said:

It's a war (the Drug War) and millions have lost their lives to it over the past century. But in reality it's nothing more than Lawfare created, maintained and profited by protected classes: LEO, courts, prisons, lawyers, bureaucrats, etc. What we have here with MMMP are a couple more protected classes with Pot Docs & LARA. If they were held criminally culpable as accessories for these technicalities that endanger patients and caregivers, their lawyers and profits would end this game quickly.

Think about it, if your patient X received his cert from Dr. Proctor (wrongfully per Dr. Bob) and LARA (whom doesn't care) approves and provides you a caregiver licence, HIPAA guarantees your none the wiser to your many counts of felonies (per Dr. Bob and those whom subscribe to his legal interpretation) ...

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Perhaps you are catching on finally, we've been telling caregivers for quite some time they need to know where their patients got their cert to avoid the very situation you are talking about. It appears the courts will now move in that direction, given this ruling. So if you are a caregiver, you better check.

Here is the article written by Attorney Randall Collins..Caregiver Responsibilities- Attorney Randall Collins

Now one other point you make, should the doctors be held accountable. Yes, they should. Then many of these docs will start doing a better job protecting their patients. Of note is that on the paperwork you sign when you do your mail in renewal with Alternative Solutions of Petoskey you actually have to sign a waiver releasing them from any liability if your cert is overturned, so you can't sue them because they thought of that in advance. I guess some clinics spend time and lawyer money looking to protect patients, and other spend time and lawyer money protecting themselves (the clinic)

Dr. Bob said:

Perhaps you are catching on finally, we've been telling caregivers for quite some time they need to know where their patients got their cert to avoid the very situation you are talking about. It appears the courts will now move in that direction, given this ruling. So if you are a caregiver, you better check.

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Does HIPAA not make that third party inquiry illegal and in turn absurd? Does a patient even legally need to disclose their doctor and/or qualifying medical condition to their LARA licensed provider (caregiver)? What is LARA's responsibility here?

BTW what is the annual gross of your chain of the eight statewide cert clinics known as Denali Heathcare PLLC that you are promoting here? Does that include kickbacks as an "expert witness" for those whom can afford you and your associated lawyers? Would say a 3500$ kickback stacked upon those lawyers absorbent fees be reasonable?

TheMan13 said:

Does HIPAA not make that third party inquiry illegal and in turn absurd? Does a patient even legally need to disclose their doctor and/or qualifying medical condition to their LARA licensed provider (caregiver)? What is LARA's responsibility here?

BTW what is the annual gross of your chain of the eight statewide cert clinics known as Denali Heathcare PLLC that you are promoting here? Does that include kickbacks as an "expert witness" for those whom can afford you and your associated lawyers? Would say a 3500$ kickback stacked upon those lawyers absorbent fees be reasonable?

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No Hipaa does not, and insurance companies can and do request records on those they cover all the time. Your question reflects a complete lack of understanding of hipaa. The second part of your question has been answered, read the responses. We don't require caregiver information though some patients put it on the form. Any disclosure of that is voluntary.

As for what I make, none of your damn business any more than what you make is mine. Eight (are you referring to clinic offices that do more than certs or outreach clinics)? you are forgetting a few and we are opening in Lansing, GR, Traverse City and Escanaba in the near future since you brought it up.

Dr. Bob said:

It works and protects people all the time. For the life of me I don't understand why pecker doesn't get that and insists that someone I am in agreement with the idea of putting patients in jail. The court case speaks for itself, and that is the way it is. Agree with it or not, it doesn't change things.

Hopefully the state medical board will take care of Proctor. But if they don't and folks keep giving him cash, this will happen again.

Buyer beware.

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That view I might have a problem with. Talking about Dr Proctor, the last thing I want is how it is up in Canada where I believe the medical school has the right to take away a doctors license if they feel they aren't practicing medicine as the school feels they should be. (something like that, I know like 1% on Canada laws, lol )

Up in Canada the doctors seem too scared to practice medicine when it comes to marijuana.
Its too easy from them to lose their medicine licenses. Yeah in Canada weed on the streets might be easier to score--well it is depending where U go, Toronto has been allowing clubs to stay open that lets any adult smoke weed inside vapor lounges, so long as they bring their own bud with them. Thats been going on for over 5 years now.

Over in California a person can see a doctor in a MM club basement and get the OK on the spot to use MM, they don't even have to been licensed by the state to buy and use MM once a doctor there gives the OK. Maybe thats how it should be !! Why should the state even have to know for certain if a person wants to use MM, that should be between the person and their doctor. Now if U want to be licensed by the state, that is fine too and offers more protection but its not required.

California is not Michigan, I am concerned with Michigan and what is, not what should be.

Dr. Bob said:

California is not Michigan, I am concerned with Michigan and what is, not what should be.

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As our law allows for visiting patients, as I had mentioned earlier, that should be a reasonable consideration by the court so that legal opinions do not get boxed in to a lobbyist type context injurious to third parties as seen here.

TheMan13 said:

As our law allows for visiting patients, as I had mentioned earlier, that should be a reasonable consideration by the court so that legal opinions do not get boxed in to a lobbyist type context injurious to third parties as seen here.

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True, it does allow for visiting patients. Right now that allows them to possess and use cannabis. Unfortunately there is no way for them to obtain it here, so the law doesn't appear to have been tested. I think when provisioning centers are allowed this year or next we will see how they deal with that, but I suspect they will just say it is up to their home state to decide what is good enough.

Dr. Bob said:

No Hipaa does not, and insurance companies can and do request records on those they cover all the time. Your question reflects a complete lack of understanding of hipaa. The second part of your question has been answered, read the responses. We don't require caregiver information though some patients put it on the form. Any disclosure of that is voluntary.

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I did not mean HIPAA literally, but rather the general patient privacy rights associated with it's movement today. Are you sure a patient does not have the right to not disclose their doctor and/or qualifying medical conditions to their LARA licensed provider (caregiver)?

TheMan13 said:

I did not mean HIPAA literally, but rather the general patient privacy rights associated with it's movement today. Are you sure a patient does not have the right to not disclose their doctor and/or qualifying medical conditions to their LARA licensed provider (caregiver)?

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Tell you what, you think of your question, phrase it and once you figure it out get back to me with a well structured question. Until then I'm not going to go round and round with your rather insulting and confused questions.