The bad seed thread.

[outlier]

WE can look at seeds and say "damn, now thats a nice looking cannabis seed" and plant that and have a strong sturdy plant...what did the seeds look like upon planting them...you mentioned not fully ripe" I wouldnt have planted anything but that ^^^^^^^^. Kinda off topic but I found this the other day, and I was going to run the same test to see if its legit...

tell me what ya think

Interesting! I might test this myself. Would be a great culling technique (if it works) when dealing with boat loads of seeds

 

[SwankyDank]

Mandala is a respected breeder. Could have been a bad batch but doubtful.

Also your soil looks drenched. Pre soak soil lightly and don't touch it til it's growing. I water my seedling lightly once and they aren't watered again for a very long while.

Thanks for the response. I ordered these seeds for exactly the reason you stated. Mandala has the respect. Maybe that respect is based on the quality of their strains and not the quality of the seed. This is my first grow with Mandala, but definitely not this first time I've had seeds that have performed like this. I have also had bad seeds from Dr. Feelgood, Buddha, and Kera. I have planted over 50 Seedsman and all 50 were up in 3 days. I have planted 10 Dinafem and all were up in 2 or 3 days. Seedsman and Dinafem had the vigor.

My post above hopefully addressed any questions about my ability. Particularly this part:

I haven't had this many problems in 12 or 13 years and it wasn't until I started growing cannabis that I had them.

I control temps and moisture and when I have good seeds they are up within 3 days. In other words, I know what I'm doing.

I have high expectations and can't accept that properly grown and harvested seeds should ever look like this at 8 days. My experience is that cannabis seeds are one of the simplest to grow. If they are good seeds they will emerge within 3 days with no soaking and they will need no help until transplanting. The best cannabis seeds I've planted emerged in two days.

My experience with bad seeds like this is that if I leave them alone it is a solid two weeks before they start normal growth. That's not how it works with good seed and not my default expectation for seeds. I don't need an extra two weeks of veg time just to baby along some bad seeds. They should be up and going in 3 days and if not something is wrong. That is why I perform surgery on the bad ones... if they are going to stay in the garden they need to be on point and on schedule. If they aren't up in 5 days I dig and check the seed. If they haven't even popped yet, good-bye. If they show even the tiniest bit of potential I'll get that seed coat off even if it means some are killed off. I'd rather know where I'm at with the next round so I can have my 60 days planned rather than doink around waiting to see what happens over a two or three week period and then still need to pop in some new ones that could have already been vegging that whole time.

I think part of the problem is the cannabis culture of low expectations. Spotty quality control is just how it is so we accept it. I don't know which, if any, seed breeders use the basic skill of separation. Commercial agricultural breeders maintain quality by sifting seeds. (http://articles.extension.org/pages/18350/organic-seed-processing:-threshing-cleaning-and-storage) The smaller seeds are sifted out because "there are differences in size, shape, and density between good seed, poor seed, and other debris."
(http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/faculty/davies/pdf%20stuff/ph%20final%20galley/Chap%206%20-%20M06_DAVI4493_08_SE_C06.pdf). Another method is air separation, which removes lighter under-ripe seeds from the fully developed ripe seeds. Another method, one recommended in many cannabis growing tutorials, is the water method. Questionable seeds float. It is very rare that properly produced and sifted seed will ever float.

An agricultural seed house like Johnny's or Territorial would never even list seeds like this for sale because they would run a germ test, have the results hit under 95% of their benchmark for that particular plant, and then refuse to buy them from the breeder. I don't know which, if any, cannabis breeders and seed banks run germ tests and refuse to sell anything that is less than 90%.

 

[natro.hydro]

Thanks for the response. I ordered these seeds for exactly the reason you stated. Mandala has the respect. Maybe that respect is based on the quality of their strains and not the quality of the seed. This is my first grow with Mandala, but definitely not this first time I've had seeds that have performed like this. I have also had bad seeds from Dr. Feelgood, Buddha, and Kera. I have planted over 50 Seedsman and all 50 were up in 3 days. I have planted 10 Dinafem and all were up in 2 or 3 days. Seedsman and Dinafem had the vigor.

My post above hopefully addressed any questions about my ability. Particularly this part: I control temps and moisture and when I have good seeds they are up within 3 days. In other words, I know what I'm doing.

I have high expectations and can't accept that properly grown and harvested seeds should ever look like this at 8 days. My experience is that cannabis seeds are one of the simplest to grow. If they are good seeds they will emerge within 3 days with no soaking and they will need no help until transplanting. The best cannabis seeds I've planted emerged in two days.

My experience with bad seeds like this is that if I leave them alone it is a solid two weeks before they start normal growth. That's not how it works with good seed and not my default expectation for seeds. I don't need an extra two weeks of veg time just to baby along some bad seeds. They should be up and going in 3 days and if not something is wrong. That is why I perform surgery on the bad ones... if they are going to stay in the garden they need to be on point and on schedule. If they aren't up in 5 days I dig and check the seed. If they haven't even popped yet, good-bye. If they show even the tiniest bit of potential I'll get that seed coat off even if it means some are killed off. I'd rather know where I'm at with the next round so I can have my 60 days planned rather than doink around waiting to see what happens over a two or three week period and then still need to pop in some new ones that could have already been vegging that whole time.

I think part of the problem is the cannabis culture of low expectations. Spotty quality control is just how it is so we accept it. I don't know which, if any, seed breeders use the basic skill of separation. Commercial agricultural breeders maintain quality by sifting seeds. (http://articles.extension.org/pages/18350/organic-seed-processing:-threshing-cleaning-and-storage) The smaller seeds are sifted out because "there are differences in size, shape, and density between good seed, poor seed, and other debris."
(http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/faculty/davies/pdf%20stuff/ph%20final%20galley/Chap%206%20-%20M06_DAVI4493_08_SE_C06.pdf). Another method is air separation, which removes lighter under-ripe seeds from the fully developed ripe seeds. Another method, one recommended in many cannabis growing tutorials, is the water method. Questionable seeds float. It is very rare that properly produced and sifted seed will ever float.

An agricultural seed house like Johnny's or Territorial would never even list seeds like this for sale because they would run a germ test, have the results hit under 95% of their benchmark for that particular plant, and then refuse to buy them from the breeder. I don't know which, if any, cannabis breeders and seed banks run germ tests and refuse to sell anything that is less than 90%.

I swear floating seeds is a pot forum myth. Float or sink they almost always come up for me.
I can't be the only one to experience this?

Only true quick test for duds I do is pinch the seed, if it crushes it wasn't viable. Don't crush, pretty good chances she will come up.

 

[Thefarmer12]

Understandable. Could be a bad batch then maybe contact the bank or breeder, the breeders especially are usually understanding if you are courteous and explain your situation.

I've also been farming for over a decade and sometimes when it's been awhile I can fudge it up/"over care". I can say that rapid rooters or similar plugs are a god send. Since switching to rooter plugs my success rate is fantastic. The rapid rooters have some type of tree bark (?) that aids in root development. Worth a try if it tickles your fancy. Coco pellets also work nicely even if you're not in coco as your medium.

I know Mandala specifically recommends not pre germinating in paper towel or anything, though I find it is more successful for me using the paper towel trick with a heat mat. May have missed your technique regarding that but just some food for thought.

Good luck and sorry to hear of your troubles, I know how frustrating it can be losing genetics especially when they can be so costly.

 

[Thefarmer12]

I swear floating seeds is a pot forum myth. Float or sink they almost always come up for me.
I can't be the only one to experience this?

Only true quick test for duds I do is pinch the seed, if it crushes it wasn't viable. Don't crush, pretty good chances she will come up.

Agreed. Not sure where people get these ideas like flushing, etc.. They spread like wildfire though.

 

[SwankyDank]

I swear floating seeds is a pot forum myth. Float or sink they almost always come up for me.
I can't be the only one to experience this?

Only true quick test for duds I do is pinch the seed, if it crushes it wasn't viable. Don't crush, pretty good chances she will come up.

Same here, most of the floaters still grow but usually they are lower quality or deformed.

I think the real wisdom in the myth is the sinking part. If they sink you can be sure they are good. If they float they might be good might not.

 

[natro.hydro]

Same here, most of the floaters still grow but usually they are lower quality or deformed.

I think the real wisdom in the myth is the sinking part. If they sink you can be sure they are good. If they float they might be good might not.

Now I am no scientist so everything I say in this post is my experiences/thoughts.
But maybe those floaters are just the seeds that have an exceptionally hard seed case/seal. Because I never worry when I seed floats, it's when I drop them in water and it sinks right away, then I get worried they aren't viable.
Just this stoners thoughts....

 

[SwankyDank]

I've used rooters as well and they are an excellent medium. Those were the seeds that were up in two days.

My only problem with the rooters was bad seeds not being strong enough to hold their heads up. The rooter was stronger and inflexible so then it was much harder fixing the problem. Had to carefully tear up the rooter without damaging the growth point of the root.

As far as contacting Mandala or Herbies, I'm not really that concerned about it. This may seem counter intuitive to my posts but this thread isn't about a particular breeder or bank, it's more about letting other people know that they are probably pretty good at growing and it's not their "fault" that their seeds didn't grow.

I'll write it again, cannabis seeds are an easy grow if they are quality seeds that were stored properly. As easy as tomato. I think something like Basil or Parsley is much harder to start indoors than cannabis.

 

[SPLFreak808]

Imo, you could have deformed seedlings from seeds that float and/or sink. It depends on the quality of the seed. 90% of the time ill throw a bean in 1 gallon of roots organic and let it go. Only the crappy seeds have a hard time pulling through and they usually come in a batch from the same mother.

 

[farmasensist]

I've used rooters as well and they are an excellent medium. Those were the seeds that were up in two days.

My only problem with the rooters was bad seeds not being strong enough to hold their heads up. The rooter was stronger and inflexible so then it was much harder fixing the problem. Had to carefully tear up the rooter without damaging the growth point of the root.

As far as contacting Mandala or Herbies, I'm not really that concerned about it. This may seem counter intuitive to my posts but this thread isn't about a particular breeder or bank, it's more about letting other people know that they are probably pretty good at growing and it's not their "fault" that their seeds didn't grow.

I'll write it again, cannabis seeds are an easy grow if they are quality seeds that were stored properly. As easy as tomato. I think something like Basil or Parsley is much harder to start indoors than cannabis.

If you want a challenge, try germinating tobacco. Those seeds were really hard to work with, they are about the size of sand. I got them to sprout the first two leafs then they got stuck like that amd didn't grow anymore.

 

[Yodaweed]

Some of my veggies take like 3-4 weeks to germinate, I do it outdoors in the ground, have had decent rates. I grew some beans that took like 6 weeks to germinate outside.

 

[natro.hydro]

If you want a challenge, try germinating tobacco. Those seeds were really hard to work with, they are about the size of sand. I got them to sprout the first two leafs then they got stuck like that amd didn't grow anymore.

Some of my veggies take like 3-4 weeks to germinate, I do it outdoors in the ground, have had decent rates. I grew some beans that took like 6 weeks to germinate outside.

I had never started pepper plants from seed until last summer, and that was a pain in the ass. The few I did get up got bleached as hell when I was trying to adjust them to outside light. Still had a few pull through and give me tons of peppers so the early start indoors was worth it.

 

[Yodaweed]

I had never started pepper plants from seed until last summer, and that was a pain in the ass. The few I did get up got bleached as hell when I was trying to adjust them to outside light. Still had a few pull through and give me tons of peppers.

I grow lots of pepper, they grow amazing in Colorado I had 6 sweet pepper plants and 2 jalapeno's in my outdoor garden last year, I plan to do a poblano and habanero in addition to my sweet and jalapeno's this year ( spice that shit up in the kitchen!) I grow garlic, turnips, beans( snap and string) , onions, strawberry, broccoli, blueberry ( very hard to grow in Colorado cause of soil issues) . Want to get a greenhouse going this year .

 

[natro.hydro]

I grow lots of pepper, they grow amazing in Colorado I had 6 sweet pepper plants and 2 jalapeno's in my outdoor garden last year, I plan to do a poblano and habanero in addition to my sweet and jalapeno's this year ( spice that shit up in the kitchen!) I grow garlic, turnips, beans( snap and string) , onions, strawberry, broccoli, blueberry ( very hard to grow in Colorado cause of soil issues) . Want to get a greenhouse going this year .

I only grow the shit that burns as much going down as it does coming out lol. This year was chocolate habaneros Tasmanian habanaeros, Trinidad scorpions. Was supposed to have a giant bhut jolokia but it turned out to be a mislabeled trinidad, and none of my ghost pepper, and Carolina reaper seedlings sprouted or survived the transition. So was a lot of habaneros in my salsa this year, got a ton of dried pepper now too.

 

[Yodaweed]

I only grow the shit that burns as much going down as it does coming out lol. This year was chocolate habaneros Tasmanian habanaeros, Trinidad scorpions. Was supposed to have a giant bhut jolokia but it turned out to be a mislabeled trinidad, and none of my ghost pepper, and Carolina reaper seedlings sprouted or survived the transition. So was a lot of habaneros in my salsa this year, got a ton of dried pepper now too.

My gf likes spicy food , I am kinda a wuss I can barely eat jalapeno's. mouth gets on fire!

 

[natro.hydro]

My gf likes spicy food , I am kinda a wuss I can barely eat jalapeno's. mouth gets on fire!

I love the burn, just gotta drink enough milk to make sure it don't burn too bad.

 

[Yodaweed]

I only grow the shit that burns as much going down as it does coming out lol. This year was chocolate habaneros Tasmanian habanaeros, Trinidad scorpions. Was supposed to have a giant bhut jolokia but it turned out to be a mislabeled trinidad, and none of my ghost pepper, and Carolina reaper seedlings sprouted or survived the transition. So was a lot of habaneros in my salsa this year, got a ton of dried pepper now too.
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Where do you get your seeds? I been just buying mine at the local stores but their selection isn't great( home depot/ lowes/ ace hardware).

 

[SwankyDank]

Love the peppers. Grow mostly cayenne for drying and grinding. This is about the only thing in the garden that doesn't get sampled by the rabbits and squirrels.

 

[SwankyDank]

I wish cannabis reproduced like this:

 

[SwankyDank]

I had never started pepper plants from seed until last summer, and that was a pain in the ass...

Pepper seeds are tough. For germination they really need a consistent soil temp of 85F+ which can be tough to do without a heat mat. Once they sprout they need 70's lights on, 60's lights off which is even tougher because damping off loves those same conditions and if they get even a little too wet they can be gone in a flash or get set back due to partial damage.