Supercropping - Twist & crack your way to fatter colas

Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
opiumfiend said:
i acidently snapped my branch while trying this so i taped it back up and wow. it branched off into 4 main colas all the same high. with 3 of them all huge and the same size. was awesome. :)
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And you think the "awesomeness" was because of the snapped branch?

Can any one that has real world horticulture experience point me to a bonafide commercial grower of annuals, perennials, flowers, fruits, etc. who practices this newbie forum gimmick?
 
opiumfiend

opiumfiend

Active Member
lol really? you are kidding right? dude you can find information this is everywhere. ever heard of HST? lol. i was bending the main stem to get it 90 degrees as a form of hst. but i accidentally snapped it off completely as i said. i tapped it back on and the plant responded accordingly. in fact il give you some photo's. because yes i do think the "awesomeness" was a result of this. it couldn't be anything else. i didn't do anything else to it and pot doesn't grow like that lol. im actually completely perplexed as to why an experienced grower like yourself is saying this lol

as you can see in the photo there are 3 main colas and there is also a 4th smaller one. the plant stands at about 40cm high. were as all my untrained plants are 1.3 meters tall. you can also see the knuckle on the stem where i broke it and had to tape it back on IMG_20150117_021536.jpgIMG_20150117_021542.jpg IMG_20150117_021557.jpg IMG_20150117_021611.jpg IMG_20150117_021611.jpg IMG_20150117_021634.jpg IMG_20150117_022125.jpg IMG_20150117_022146.jpg IMG_20150117_022153.jpg
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
opiumfiend said:
lol really? you are kidding right? dude you can find information this is everywhere. ever heard of HST?
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Just because a plant keeps growing doesn't mean it's a credible practice. You can do most anything to this plant and "it works".

I asked for info from a bonafide commercial horticulture source, NOT cannabis related. Re-read my post.
 
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opiumfiend

opiumfiend

Active Member
my original post was stating an event i experienced and the consequence of that experience and that i was pleased with said consequence as i was expecting a negative one such as irreversible damage or stress. why you have a problem with this or why you are calling it a "forum newbie gimick" is beyond me lol. i never stated people should do it or anything of that sort.

"And you think the "awesomeness" was because of the snapped branch?"

why wouldn't i. and why on earth do you think otherwise. i know you are an experienced grower but iv read your posts on many other threads and it's all the same shit, calling people noobs or putting people down or been condescending. why that makes you feel good i will never know. and what drove you to make a condescending statement regarding my post is also beyond me.

like for real lol. what is it about my original post which upsets you or is problematic.
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Well, lets see if any one else can link me to a non cannabis website that pinches stems or trunks. And for the record, this practice has been discussed in cannabis forums forever. So has flushing and other gimmicks. Look up the definition of 'paradigm' - "A system of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality."

Like cannabis specific products labeled to sound and look cool to the masses, the name which has some super human connotation means more than the actual benefits, if any.

Now, if a university of ag practices "supercropping" on say, soybeans, corn, tomatoes...... I will take notice.
 
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vitamin_green_inc

vitamin_green_inc

Well-Known Member
It definitely slows down the main growth, making the plant bush out, and when done properly it creates a nice repaired area.

I don't think it neccesarily increases yields, but it helps to strengthen the main cola, and is a good last ditch effort to train. I have tried supercropping, topping for 2 colas, topping for 4 and LST. The LST was probably the least real recovery time. I say real, becuase even though the plants back bounce quicker after being supercropped than say, being Topped, growers almost always base their conclusions on what they can physically see. This is what Uncle Ben is trying to show you with the asking for evidence from reputable sciences.

MJ will be reputable, but until it is accepted then all we have is conjecture from copying other agriculture practices, and that conjecture doesn't have a nice fancy lab and microscopes to test everything. Also, in the community you will find people basing their research on legendary growers who wrote books, but the only reason they were able to be considered "reputable" in the cannabis world is becuase they had better access and more samples to study from than your at-home closet grower.

Idk, I am obviously rambling, but I hope I helped to dissipate the negative vibes here. Study and publish more, like UncleBen, and you too can be considered a master grower one day. It's tough, but damn is it fun.
 
pineappleman420

pineappleman420

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
Well, lets see if any one else can link me to a non cannabis website that pinches stems or trunks. And for the record, this practice has been discussed in cannabis forums forever. So has flushing and other gimmicks. Look up the definition of 'paradigm' - "A system of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality."

Like cannabis specific products labeled to sound and look cool to the masses, the name which has some super human connotation means more than the actual benefits, if any.

Now, if a university of ag practices "supercropping" on say, soybeans, corn, tomatoes...... I will take notice.
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Thought this was interesting. I Know this isnt proof of practice but it sounds like if you do break the cells unnaturally you are doing what nature would have already done on its own.
here is the link.http://www.cliffsnotes.com/sciences/biology/plant-biology/the-shoot-system-stems/secondary-growth-of-stems

Phloem. Secondary phloem cells are produced by the vascular cambium at the same time as secondary xylem cells, but in fewer numbers. Their outward growth pushes the primary phloem cells against the cortex, breaking most and leaving only the thicker‐walled fibers as remnants. Ray parenchyma cells initiated by the cambium give rise to phloem rays and, towards the center of the stem, xylem rays. The rays are the primary avenues of lateral movement of materials from the vascular vertical conduits that lie close to the cambium.
 
FranJan

FranJan

Well-Known Member
I'm no Horti student but since the dawn of time farmers to florists have manipulated plants UB. I will say I agree you don't get something for nothing and pinching a stem isn't a guarantee. Found this on Bing in less than 30 seconds.

http://lieth.ucdavis.edu/pub/Pub063_JASHS129p896_KimShackelLieth.pdf

"In commercial rose production for cut-flowers, shoot-bending has become a standard growing technique in conjunction with container-based soil-less media culture".

"Kool and Lenssen (1997) reported that increased light interception was achieved by shoot-bending during the period of basal-shoot formation. As a consequence, plant growth rate was increased. Kim and Lieth (2004) reported that applying shoot-bending to nonproductive shoots resulted in increased stem length of harvestable flowering shoots at the expense of the number of flowering shoots per unit ground area. It has also been speculated that shoot-bending may break apical dominance by changing the hormonal balance within the plant and promoting the formation of axillary shoots (Cline, 1991; Hosokawa et al., 1990)

"Blah, Blah Blah. Blabbity, blabitty, blabbity. I'm Uncle Ben and you're wrong cause I was hear first and that's not what I'm talking about. Blah, blah, blah"
 
Mr. HighGuy

Mr. HighGuy

Active Member
Dr.StickyFingers said:
When I refer to supercropping in this thread I'll be referring to the technique of bending branches.

What is supercropping? If you're clumsy like myself you might have broken a branch here or there during a grow causing the branch to limp but hopefully still be attached to the stem. It's another form of training that induces stress on the plant much like LST except you're bending the branch to the point that the cell wall breaks instead of tying down each branch. As shown in this diagram.View attachment 3229454
Here is another example.
View attachment 3229455

Why does super cropping work?
Essentially what you're doing is rerouting auxin. Auxin is the plant growth hormone responsible for cell growth and division. In fact, the word auxin literally means "to grow/increase". When a plant is left to grow naturally most of the auxin in the plant is located at the tip. When you supercrop your plants what you're doing is stressing the plant by breaking the cell wells. In response, the plant diverts auxin from the tip causing two thing to happen; The area of the branch which was bent recovers mending itself and that surrounding area of the plant which wasn't productive before experiences growth usually causing the plant to become bushier and increasing yield with bigger colas. Also, the horizontal bend allows for more surface area that light can come in contact with (same idea as SCROG & LST).

How to supercrop.
What you're trying to accomplish is to break the cell walls. You can do this by pinching, twisting, bending, or rolling the branch between your thumb/index/middle finger to the point where you can feel a slight crack and the fibers breaking. The branch which was rigid before should limp over (don't break it off). Don't stress your plant more than you have to, usually you won't have to go past 90 degrees to crack the branch. When done right you're plant should start to correct itself in a day or two and usually you will see a fibrous knot or bulge at the site where the plant mended itself after a few more days. When the plant has fully mended itself that area where the break occurred comes back even stronger

Here is an example of a plant that has mended itself.
View attachment 3229483

Some things to remember...
- Supercropping is not effective with all strains, some strains will respond better than others. Test it on one branch before bending others.
- You should let your plant develop a few nodes before you start to twist & crack. If you FIM or Top your plant you should wait until the plant has recovered and established its new colas before you supercrop those branches.
- Allow your plant to mend the first bend before bending the same branch again. When bending the same branch do so a node or 2 away from the first bend.
- Stop bending branches once your plant has started to develop flowers
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Does this look correct...?

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Rollitup mobile app
 

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Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
FranJan said:
I'm no Horti student but since the dawn of time farmers to florists have manipulated plants UB.
Click to expand...
Come March I'll put you in my vineyard and teach you what real "manipulation" is all about....as you make a thousand cuts with a pair of Felco's.
MouvCluster.jpg

I will say I agree you don't get something for nothing and pinching a stem isn't a guarantee. Found this on Bing in less than 30 seconds.

http://lieth.ucdavis.edu/pub/Pub063_JASHS129p896_KimShackelLieth.pdf

"In commercial rose production for cut-flowers, shoot-bending has become a standard growing technique in conjunction with container-based soil-less media culture".

"Kool and Lenssen (1997) reported that increased light interception was achieved by shoot-bending during the period of basal-shoot formation. As a consequence, plant growth rate was increased. Kim and Lieth (2004) reported that applying shoot-bending to nonproductive shoots resulted in increased stem length of harvestable flowering shoots at the expense of the number of flowering shoots per unit ground area. It has also been speculated that shoot-bending may break apical dominance by changing the hormonal balance within the plant and promoting the formation of axillary shoots (Cline, 1991; Hosokawa et al., 1990)
Click to expand...
Bending is NOT the same as breaking/fracturing the xylem and phloem. Apples and oranges. Bending induces a hormonal response, apical dominance change thingie. Also, cannabis is an annual, rose a perennial.

"Blah, Blah Blah. Blabbity, blabitty, blabbity. I'm Uncle Ben and you're wrong cause I was hear first and that's not what I'm talking about. Blah, blah, blah"
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You're not only wrong, you're full of shit and can't spell. Ya here?

Blah, blah, blah,
Uncle Ben
 
C

CC Dobbs

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
Well, lets see if any one else can link me to a non cannabis website that pinches stems or trunks. And for the record, this practice has been discussed in cannabis forums forever. So has flushing and other gimmicks. Look up the definition of 'paradigm' - "A system of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality."

Like cannabis specific products labeled to sound and look cool to the masses, the name which has some super human connotation means more than the actual benefits, if any.

Now, if a university of ag practices "supercropping" on say, soybeans, corn, tomatoes...... I will take notice.
Click to expand...
You know, when you ask, that there will be no Ag recommendations for pinching/crimping. It would never be cost effective, even if it did have some beneficial affect, to hand manipulate any crop with a low market value. I have seen it done in greenhouses for cucumbers though I didn't stick around to see the results but they swear by it.
 
pineappleman420

pineappleman420

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
Come March I'll put you in my vineyard and teach you what real "manipulation" is all about....as you make a thousand cuts with a pair of Felco's.
Uncle Ben
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I would give my left foot to come work on any of your growing projects. I know I could learn more from you in respect to all aspects of gardening then i would by trolling forums for the specks of truth.
 
listmann

listmann

Well-Known Member
WHY you americans insist upon hurting your precious girls i will never understand

Using this technique not only do you seriously stress the plant greatly increasing chance of hermies.
you also slow down the whole grow as it recovers from it's injuries. 30 percent of "pinched" branches atleast simply stop growing falling behind the canopy :(

Furthemore the "pinched section" will usually never regain its full ability to transport water and nutes to the colas

If i knew how to post pics here i'd show ya the maddest grows and buds grown only using a bit of LST/Scrogging :) - or better iet come up north and i will get you so stoned you won't even remember having taken the trip!. i get consistantly minimum 500grams dried grade A bud in 1 square meter under 600w hps. I even pushed past the magic watt to gram limit on a few occasions taking more than 600grams dried bud and making 20g of hash from the trimmings! ;)
Trust me you do NOT need to hurt the girls ;)

Ofcourse its ALOT easier to do than having to tie them down i guess if your really lazy thats how you'd try to keep an even canopy ;)
 
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hydroMD

hydroMD

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
Just because a plant keeps growing doesn't mean it's a credible practice. You can do most anything to this plant and "it works".

I asked for info from a bonafide commercial horticulture source, NOT cannabis related. Re-read my post.
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I agree. Cracking your stem might prevent your nodes from stretching, but what it comes down to is light per square foot. If you have more bud sights in optimal light, your going to get bigger buds.

That cracking of the stem isn't whats giving results, its allowing more tops to grow in the canopy.

I will be doing a side by side of LST vs. Supercropping. I've tried both methods and yield and quality are always consistent.
 
calicocalyx

calicocalyx

Well-Known Member
I have pinched out of necessity ( no more height room) and honestly couldn't say that those buds were bigger than the other top buds that didn't get pinched. Supposedly bigger stem equals more nutes, yadda yadda. But it's only bigger at the wound and I would think the damaged part of the stem is not being used for nute transport. What a resilient plant though. On a sidenote I spent a season pruning grapes, 30 cents per plant. Freaking destroyed the tendons in my hand. No thanks on the vineyard work. :p I want to see some science behind the supercropping as well.
 
hydroMD

hydroMD

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
Not true. That's another false paradigm that will never die parroted by folks that don't understand plant processes. (And it's sites, not sights.)

Smart phone strikes again. I blame auto correct.

And im not arguing that lower bud sights dont form with a lack of light, im arguing that a plant will perform better with more consistant bud if you create an even canopy. Thus supercropping is a moot point. Its my stance that breaking branches to spread out the canopy is doing the same thing as LST. It isn't the plant redistribution of axiom, its the ability to get even light distribution.

Plenty of secondary lighting passes to lower bud sights sure, but im not arguing that point.

Simply that I call bs on supercropping.

Analogy: a solar panel still creates energy through cloud cover, but not at optimal levels. Big enough plant, even a 1000w will not penetrate to bottom nugs. I prefer training and having golf ball sized suckers that are worth the time to trim. If I was a concentrate guy Id leave things and make hash with the extra, but instead I train the hell out of my girls and never have tiny or wispy buds

https://www.rollitup.org/t/light.853779/page-13
https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/
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Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
calicocalyx said:
On a sidenote I spent a season pruning grapes, 30 cents per plant. Freaking destroyed the tendons in my hand. No thanks on the vineyard work. :p I want to see some science behind the supercropping as well.
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Then you may understand Vertical Shoot Positioning, VSP, which is what I practice. It's not only a science regarding what to remove and what to retain, it's an art that takes years and plenty of networking with the pros to learn. I finally got it down pat.....
 
hydroMD

hydroMD

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
Then you may understand Vertical Shoot Positioning, VSP, which is what I practice. It's not only a science regarding what to remove and what to retain, it's an art that takes years and plenty of networking with the pros to learn. I finally got it down pat.....
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Your talking about your grapes with VSP right?

I am starting to grow my own hops for my craft beers. Trade you a 6 pack for a bottle of wine ;)


Off topic but I've been in commercial agriculture all my life. Family runs a century farm for grass seed and specialty crops... we should start a thread so I can pick your brain about your vineyard ;) I have two rows of Concorde grapes but am a novice and have only attempted making anything birthrate juice a few times.

Do you make wine?
 
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