Sotomayor Refuses to Renounce 'Wise Latina' Word

Radiate

Well-Known Member
Then why were we dealing with civil rights issues (Can't walk on side of the street, drinking fountains, schools) into the 60's? The fact is that Slavery was no longer profitable do to technicalogical advances. , There were good people, many infact that did strongly oppose slavery but most laws were not changed to be good, they were changed because it was demanded by the masses.
If anything you have continued to prove my point.

My personal argument with diversity being good would be back in the times when it was constitutionally ok to say own slaves. Without different opinions those laws would have never been overturned

.......and many of the people with that different opinion were also white, disproving the theory that you need someone who looks different than you to have a different opinion than you. If you think somebody thinks differently because of the color of their skin, you are a racist, plain and simple.


Until America realizes that a person is supposed to be judged by what's in their head instead of the color of the outside of their body, we will be eternally locked in this battle. But people want special rights, not equal rights.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
If anything you have continued to prove my point.
No because it was acts of congress that changed the laws. And they are directly influenced through the people.

My personal argument with diversity being good would be back in the times when it was constitutionally ok to say own slaves. Without different opinions those laws would have never been overturned
.......and many of the people with that different opinion were also white, disproving the theory that you need someone who looks different than you to have a different opinion than you. If you think somebody thinks differently because of the color of their skin, you are a racist, plain and simple.


Until America realizes that a person is supposed to be judged by what's in their head instead of the color of the outside of their body, we will be eternally locked in this battle. But people want special rights, not equal rights.
Dude your not getting it, people changed things through not needing them anymore and allowing the people that want the change to do so. Like later during the civil rights movement the people who demanded change made it happen.

If you think that I am saying anything about color of skin your wrong. I actually think racism is just ignorance. But being that as it is, growing up in a different setting WILL 100% give you different views.

Someone that grew up on a farm will understand how laws will affect farms better than someone who has never been on one. That is just pure common sense. Growing up wealthy and white you will not have the same understanding of how something that you have never knew about would be affected by particular laws.

Can you get that, if not your just not wanting to and would feel more comfortable just going with the idiots that say she is a racist because of what she said regardless of the fact she in the past has stood up for a white racist cop who was spreading kkk type material off the job that got fired.
 

Radiate

Well-Known Member
No because it was acts of congress that changed the laws. And they are directly influenced through the people.

Dude your not getting it, people changed things through not needing them anymore and allowing the people that want the change to do so. Like later during the civil rights movement the people who demanded change made it happen.

you think that I am saying anything about color of skin your wrong. I actually think racism is just ignorance. But being that as it is, growing up in a different setting WILL 100% give you different views. If

Someone that grew up on a farm will understand how laws will affect farms better than someone who has never been on one. That is just pure common sense. Growing up wealthy and white you will not have the same understanding of how something that you have never knew about would be affected by particular laws.

.

What relevance does any of this have to the debate we're having? Maybe you mis-read what I was trying to say? It seems like you're trying to prove a point that I wasn't even talking about. What's your point? I feel like something's getting lost in the language.......:-?




Can you get that, if not your just not wanting to and would feel more comfortable just going with the idiots that say she is a racist because of what she said regardless of the fact she in the past has stood up for a white racist cop who was spreading kkk type material off the job that got fired
Look, I'm here for the sake of having the most intellectual debates I can, and maybe (hopefully) learn something new from someone else's perspective. Don't start wasting my time with petty insults.


Anyways.....


How does her case with the KKK cop absolve her of anything? She stood up for him because it was blatantly obvious that even though he was a racist douche it was a violation of his 1st Amendment rights. Any judge could've seen that from a mile away, and if they didn't it would've been appealed and swiftly reversed.
 

Radiate

Well-Known Member
But being that as it is, growing up in a different setting WILL 100% give you different views.
No, it won't. What a person ultimately becomes is a result of their own choices. Yes, how/where you grow up can have some influence, but there comes a point in life where a person grows up and makes their own decisions, including whether or not to continue with the practices and views aquired in their upbringing. If the latter was not true, we'd all be exactly like our parents.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
How does her case with the KKK cop absolve her of anything? She stood up for him because it was blatantly obvious that even though he was a racist douche it was a violation of his 1st Amendment rights. Any judge could've seen that from a mile away, and if they didn't it would've been appealed and swiftly reversed.
She was outvoted and he was found guilty.

Quote:
.......and many of the people with that different opinion were also white, disproving the theory that you need someone who looks different than you to have a different opinion than you. If you think somebody thinks differently because of the color of their skin, you are a racist, plain and simple.

Look, I'm here for the sake of having the most intellectual debates I can, and maybe (hopefully) learn something new from someone else's perspective. Don't start wasting my time with petty insults.
No problem I appologize. I thought that because I don't share your opinion you where saying I had to be a racist. I read it wrong. You are right, it is not the color of skin, or race someone is, it is the experiences that are different. And wealthy white men experiences are vastly different from poor latino women.

Race could easily be taken out of that.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Someone that grew up on a farm will understand how laws will affect farms better than someone who has never been on one. That is just pure common sense. Growing up wealthy and white you will not have the same understanding of how something that you have never knew about would be affected by particular laws.
Was what I had said, so
Originally Posted by hanimmal
But being that as it is, growing up in a different setting WILL 100% give you different views.
No, it won't. What a person ultimately becomes is a result of their own choices. Yes, how/where you grow up can have some influence, but there comes a point in life where a person grows up and makes their own decisions, including whether or not to continue with the practices and views aquired in their upbringing. If the latter was not true, we'd all be exactly like our parents.
Growing up differently will do so. If I don't understand say how say storing farming equipment (using the farm example I pointed to) properly affects it, if I got a law in front of me and some paid off scientist is saying that they should do it a different way to stop pollution, I may not have a clue and just decide on the wrong choice. If the farmer doesn't want to change the way they do it and convinces me that this would ruin them, but I know that is not the case due to my personal experiences I can rely on them to make the correct decision.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Now can you prove that every white man in a public office has had a privileged life?
God no. Where did you get that out of anything I had said? I am just saying that her words and actions don't mean or even point to her being a racist, unless your looking for it to.
 

what... huh?

Active Member
God no. Where did you get that out of anything I had said? I am just saying that her words and actions don't mean or even point to her being a racist, unless your looking for it to.
"I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life."

“Personal experiences affect the facts that judges choose to see. My hope is that I will take the good from my experiences and extrapolate them further into areas with which I am unfamiliar. I simply do not know exactly what that difference will be in my judging. But I accept there will be some based on my gender and my Latina heritage.”


Demonstrates racism, sexism, and prejudice.

It isn't an issue of us looking for it, it is you choosing not to see it.

"I would hope that a wise white male with the richness of his experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a Latina female who hasn't lived that life."

How is the above not racist, or sexist?
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
"I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life."

“Personal experiences affect the facts that judges choose to see. My hope is that I will take the good from my experiences and extrapolate them further into areas with which I am unfamiliar. I simply do not know exactly what that difference will be in my judging. But I accept there will be some based on my gender and my Latina heritage.”


Demonstrates racism, sexism, and prejudice.

It isn't an issue of us looking for it, it is you choosing not to see it.

"I would hope that a wise white male with the richness of his experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a Latina female who hasn't lived that life."

How is the above not racist, or sexist?
I am trying to find the full video of this, can you point me to where it is. I would like to see the whole thing to make my own decision on it. Those words taken as that can be seen as sexism and racism. But it is a couple lines, where is the rest.

I have seen way too often people taking things and distorting them like this into meanings that were never meant that way to make people look bad.

And I could see someone saying "Growing up a wealthy white man in a suburban community I will have had access to a education that will allow me to more often than not make better decisions than a poor latina woman that had not had my backround."

Is that racist? It could be if you look at it that way or if it was meant that way, but it could also just be the truth.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Han, her entire record is horrid.

I have a new avatar for you. I can't help but notice you running around the pol threads sticking your finger in all of the dikes.....:lol: It's flooding baby.....!!


 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Han, her entire record is horrid.

I have a new avatar for you. I can't help but notice you running around the pol threads sticking your finger in all of the dikes.....:lol: It's flooding baby.....!!
That is funny! I really don't mean to be the guy that defends all thing Obama but it is so hard to get you guys keep to the facts. There will always be people that don't care about the facts and will just disagree to disagree.

But I try to keep things to the truth. Not everything is so bad, but not everything is so good. If we are going to imporve we need to do it through education and better decisions about who we vote for. And if we only vote for people that feed us the news it will stay the same.
 

what... huh?

Active Member
The first clip I posted, you know the one where it was suggested I don't have opinions, I just show videos of others... making the quote and then her clarifying that statement... several times.


"Thus, feminist theories of judging are in the midst of creation and are not and perhaps will never aspire to be as solidified as the established legal doctrines of judging can sometimes appear to be. That same point can be made with respect to people of color. No one person, judge or nominee will speak in a female or people of color voice. I need not remind you that Justice Clarence Thomas represents a part but not the whole of African-American thought on many subjects. Yet, because I accept the proposition that, as Judge Resnik describes it, “to judge is an exercise of power” and because as, another former law school classmate, Professor Martha Minnow of Harvard Law School, states “there is no objective stance but only a series of perspectives — no neutrality, no escape from choice in judging,” I further accept that our experiences as women and people of color affect our decisions. The aspiration to impartiality is just that — it’s an aspiration because it denies the fact that we are by our experiences making different choices than others. Not all women or people of color, in all or some circumstances or indeed in any particular case or circumstance but enough people of color in enough cases, will make a difference in the process of judging. The Minnesota Supreme Court has given an example of this. As reported by Judge Patricia Wald formerly of the D.C. Circuit Court, three women on the Minnesota Court with two men dissenting agreed to grant a protective order against a father’s visitation rights when the father abused his child. The Judicature Journal has at least two excellent studies on how women on the courts of appeal and state supreme courts have tended to vote more often than their male counterpart to uphold women’s claims in sex discrimination cases and criminal defendants’ claims in search and seizure cases. As recognized by legal scholars, whatever the reason, not one woman or person of color in any one position but as a group we will have an effect on the development of the law and on judging."




In full context.



"Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging. Justice O’Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O’Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn’t lived that life.


Let us not forget that wise men like Oliver Wendell Holmes and Justice Cardozo voted on cases which upheld both sex and race discrimination in our society. Until 1972, no Supreme Court case ever upheld the claim of a woman in a gender discrimination case. I, like Professor Carter, believe that we should not be so myopic as to believe that others of different experiences or backgrounds are incapable of understanding the values and needs of people from a different group. Many are so capable. As Judge Cedarbaum pointed out to me, nine white men on the Supreme Court in the past have done so on many occasions and on many issues including Brown.


However, to understand takes time and effort, something that not all people are willing to give. For others, their experiences limit their ability to understand the experiences of others. Other simply do not care. Hence, one must accept the proposition that a difference there will be by the presence of women and people of color on the bench. Personal experiences affect the facts that judges choose to see. My hope is that I will take the good from my experiences and extrapolate them further into areas with which I am unfamiliar. I simply do not know exactly what that difference will be in my judging. But I accept there will be some based on my gender and my Latina heritage."


In full context.


Each day on the bench I learn something new about the judicial process and about being a professional Latina woman in a world that sometimes looks at me with suspicion. I am reminded each day that I render decisions that affect people concretely and that I owe them constant and complete vigilance in checking my assumptions, presumptions and perspectives and ensuring that to the extent that my limited abilities and capabilities permit me, that I reevaluate them and change as circumstances and cases before me requires. I can and do aspire to be greater than the sum total of my experiences but I accept my limitations. I willingly accept that we who judge must not deny the differences resulting from experience and heritage but attempt, as the Supreme Court suggests, continuously to judge when those opinions, sympathies and prejudices are appropriate.


http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2009/05/26_sotomayor.shtml


Game, set, and match.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
That is funny! I really don't mean to be the guy that defends all thing Obama but it is so hard to get you guys keep to the facts. There will always be people that don't care about the facts and will just disagree to disagree.

But I try to keep things to the truth. Not everything is so bad, but not everything is so good. If we are going to imporve we need to do it through education and better decisions about who we vote for. And if we only vote for people that feed us the news it will stay the same.
I've posted nothing but facts. They are simply inconvenient to you. :lol:
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
"Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging. Justice O’Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O’Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn’t lived that life.


Let us not forget that wise men like Oliver Wendell Holmes and Justice Cardozo voted on cases which upheld both sex and race discrimination in our society. Until 1972, no Supreme Court case ever upheld the claim of a woman in a gender discrimination case. I, like Professor Carter, believe that we should not be so myopic as to believe that others of different experiences or backgrounds are incapable of understanding the values and needs of people from a different group. Many are so capable. As Judge Cedarbaum pointed out to me, nine white men on the Supreme Court in the past have done so on many occasions and on many issues including Brown.


However, to understand takes time and effort, something that not all people are willing to give. For others, their experiences limit their ability to understand the experiences of others. Other simply do not care. Hence, one must accept the proposition that a difference there will be by the presence of women and people of color on the bench. Personal experiences affect the facts that judges choose to see. My hope is that I will take the good from my experiences and extrapolate them further into areas with which I am unfamiliar. I simply do not know exactly what that difference will be in my judging. But I accept there will be some based on my gender and my Latina heritage."


In full context.


Each day on the bench I learn something new about the judicial process and about being a professional Latina woman in a world that sometimes looks at me with suspicion. I am reminded each day that I render decisions that affect people concretely and that I owe them constant and complete vigilance in checking my assumptions, presumptions and perspectives and ensuring that to the extent that my limited abilities and capabilities permit me, that I reevaluate them and change as circumstances and cases before me requires. I can and do aspire to be greater than the sum total of my experiences but I accept my limitations. I willingly accept that we who judge must not deny the differences resulting from experience and heritage but attempt, as the Supreme Court suggests, continuously to judge when those opinions, sympathies and prejudices are appropriate.
Immediately after the wise latina:
Let us not forget that wise men like Oliver Wendell Holmes and Justice Cardozo voted on cases which upheld both sex and race discrimination in our society. Until 1972, no Supreme Court case ever upheld the claim of a woman in a gender discrimination case. I, like Professor Carter, believe that we should not be so myopic as to believe that others of different experiences or backgrounds are incapable of understanding the values and needs of people from a different group. Many are so capable.
She points out direct examples of bad decisions made by 'wise men' upholding racism and sex discrimination. Then points out how until 1972 no supreme upheld a claim for women being discrimintating. I think that her comment makes a lot more sense now. Thank you for posting that.

Oh and she says that she doesn't believe t"that we should not be so myopic as to believe that others of different experiences or backgrounds are incapable of understanding the values and needs of people from a different group"

And that "
Many are so capable"

Doesn't sound racist to me. Sounds realistic.

I've posted nothing but facts. They are simply inconvenient to you. :lol:
Really this is a fact not just blabbering?

Soto disregards the Constitution.....period. The fact that Obama picked her gives me another reason not to like his administration. He doesn't really care about the Constitution, just stack the bench with as "progressive" a candidate that he can get away with.
I would be willing to bet that in over 3000 cases we could find some that would follow the constitution.

 

what... huh?

Active Member
Immediately after the wise latina:

She points out direct examples of bad decisions made by 'wise men' upholding racism and sex discrimination. Then points out how until 1972 no supreme upheld a claim for women being discrimintating. I think that her comment makes a lot more sense now. Thank you for posting that.
This is 2009. I don't believe Latino Women suffer as much discrimination as white men.

Oh and she says that she doesn't believe "that we should not be so myopic as to believe that others of different experiences or backgrounds are incapable of understanding the values and needs of people from a different group"

And that "
Many are so capable"

Doesn't sound racist to me. Sounds realistic.

How many sexual discrimination suits went before the supreme court prior to 73?

Here I was thinking that suffrage happened. That women were given the right to vote. That every right guaranteed by the constitution which came before the SCOTUS was adjudicated correctly. Perhaps she is familiar with one I am not... her statement, however, is bullshit... and regardless of how "realistic" it seems to you, it is the ONE thing a SCOTUS judge CAN NOT BY LAW DO.

To assume that all righteous deisions ever made by the SCOTUS was "chance" and to assume that she would be MORE LIKELY to come to the right decision because of HER race and sex IS BY DEFINITION both racist and sexist.
 
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