So you want to grow legally under 502?

colonuggs

Well-Known Member
um.... no haborside from California was fined MILLIONS by the IRS because they took these deductions Im talking about

Dispensaries run by cost of goods sold or non profit.. they purchase goods, sell them at a higher price and are only responsible for taxes on the difference

but they can NOT take normal deductions that ALL legal businesses can Federally


SAN FRANCISCO -- The federal government has found a new weapon in its war on marijuana – the tax man.

A San Francisco Bay area medical marijuana dispensary that promotes itself as the world's largest has been hit with a $2.4 million tax bill following an audit by the Internal Revenue Service, the dispensary founder said Tuesday.

The back taxes, penalties and interest levied against Harborside Health Center came after the IRS examined its returns for 2007 and 2008 and determined a 1982 tax code prohibiting cost deductions for businesses that traffic in illegal drugs applies to the dispensary.

Harborside is a spa-like fixture on Oakland's waterfront with 94,114 registered customers and 84 full-time employees that offers an average of 30 varieties of medical marijuana every day and has $22 million in annual sales.

"What kind of drug trafficking organization actually files a tax return? None of them do," said Harborside CEO Steve DeAngelo, who gave his auditor a personal tour of his posh apothecary. "The very fact that we filed a tax return and told the IRS all the details of what we are doing proves we are not a drug trafficking organization."

The IRS said the agency does not comment on individual audits.

DeAngelo, the subject of an upcoming Discovery Channel reality show, said the write-offs disallowed by the IRS included standard operating costs such as rent, utilities, payroll, employee health insurance and licensing fees.

Government auditors did not dispute, however, that Harborside had properly deducted its biggest expense – the millions of dollars it spent buying pot to sell to people who use it under California's medical marijuana law.

San Francisco tax attorney Henry Wykowski, who represents DeAngelo, said a 2007 case involving another California dispensary established that the cost of goods sold was a legitimate expense for businesses the IRS otherwise considers illegitimate.

"It goes all the way back to Prohibition," Wykowski explained. "They expect even businesses operating illegally to file tax returns, so they still have to give them their business deductions, and a cost of goods sold is the primary deduction that any business would have."

DeAngelo has until Dec. 22 to contest the audit in tax court. The IRS has told him it is now reviewing Harborside's returns for 2009 and 2010.
Meanwhile, a handful of state officials have written House Speaker John Boehner, a Republican, and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a

Democrat, on behalf of DeAngelo, asking the two lawmakers to exempt "legally operating cannabis businesses" from the tax code section for drug traffickers.

DeAngelo said he does not have the $2.4 million the IRS wants. Like all legal medical marijuana dispensaries in California, Harborside operates as a nonprofit corporation while paying state sales taxes and a 5 percent local tax to Oakland – for a total of $3.1 million this year, he said.
"We would be happy to pay taxes like every other business does," he said. "No business, including Harborside, could survive if it's taxed on its gross revenue. All we want is to be treated like every other business in America."

Wykowski said he represents at least two dozen other California and Colorado pot dispensaries dealing with IRS audits. Some have persuaded auditors to accept deductions for auxiliary services such as on-site yoga classes, the time employees spend counseling customers as opposed to preparing marijuana, and quality testing. Others such as Harborside have been less successful.

"What the taxing authorities are losing sight of is if you tax these places out of business and make it so they can't compete, all it is going to do is boost underground sales," he said. "The guys on the street aren't paying their employees and if they are, they certainly aren't withholding taxes."
ITS TIME FOR THE FEDS TO CHANGE LAWS
 

colonuggs

Well-Known Member
umm... right, think that's what I just said. Laws have to change for retailers. Growers have different situation.
it dont matter be it a grower processor or retailer.... they are all in the same boat when it comes to taxes and deductions until the feds change
 

deebickle

Member
Well, I don't claim to be any expert, but at the risk of repeating myself:

So this means for a producer, virtually all your costs (rent, labor, insurance, materials, utilities) are all allowed expenses, because they are required to produce your goods. Your delivery, marketing and sales cost are not allowed, from what I understand, but those will be a small percentage. So a grower is good to go on that front.

From the BOTEC white paper 1 on the LCB site, page 4:

We have also assumed that a minimal impact of IRS Section 280E, which generally allows most expenses for producers since most of the expenses may be properly treated as
Cost of Goods Sold. Delivery and wholesale selling costs are not very material to the overall

operation.

Seems pretty clear that producers aren't in the same boat as retailers in regard to IRS Section 280E. Not that there aren't plenty of other problems.
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
I believe the IRS ruling as to what includes cost of goods for a grower has not been tested. There are a lot of gray lines as to what would be cost of goods versus general business operations\expenses. For example is the delivery cost of the wholesale product a cost of goods or a general business expense\deduction. The only consistent modus operandum for the IRS is to collect MORE money, by any practical legal means possible.

In the past the IRS has also been used by the feds to crack down on what the feds think are bad enterprises. I expect that to be true for growers of Cannabis, until its removed from Schedule 1. In this regard Cannabis growers are more akin to bootleggers during prohibition.

Do you really want to test the IRS to see if they come after you or not ? You do realize that one of the recent fed busts of dispensarys included IRS agents ?
 

deebickle

Member
What are you trying to say?

Kind of confusing.

I very specifically stated what has happened previously with the IRS regarding allowable exemptions.

I am very clear in stating that producers and retailers are different.

Am I trying to 'test' the IRS in being a producer and claiming all allowable cost of goods sold? What does that mean?

Why don't you address the issue instead of going off on some tangent?
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
What are you trying to say?

Kind of confusing.

I very specifically stated what has happened previously with the IRS regarding allowable exemptions.
show me where the IRS made a judgment that the various deductions are allowed for a grower of cannabis as a part of the cost of goods.
Until the IRS actually states that it is an untested ruling.

Even the white paper that you cited "ASSumes"

just saying ... thats not a tangent.
 

deebickle

Member
Yeah, the white paper is kind of bullshit, but they are making assumptions based upon what the IRS has done in the past. You want to see where the IRS made the judgement look no further than the high profile Harborside itself. See the link to the Forbes article I put up earlier or just google it. In the Harborside case, the IRS allowed the cost of goods sold as a deductible expense. In the case of a retailer/dispensary, you're screwed, because all of your other expenses aren't allowed. If you are a grower, 95% of your expenses are under the cost of goods sold category, so you can survive with that.

But anyway, the issue is that the IRS needs to change the 280E clause or the Feds need to get cannabis off the Schedule 1 list, or the retailers won't have a viable way to make it in Washington. Seems to me.
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
the harborside case says NOTHING for a grower. while its arguable that cost of goods should include growing costs, there is a lot of grey in what the IRS will actually allow for a grower.

Its actually clearer for a retailer now and easier to run a business because of harborside, since its pretty easy to show that if they paid X dollars for the product that that is their cost, and they know what will be tax deductible, and thats what the IRS has made an actual ruling.
 

Subu

Well-Known Member
The license application window will be very short to prepare the application package. Especially the Ops plan for those who haven't done one before. I'm offering a 2 day workshop in Bellingham, Seattle, Vancouver, and Spokane on drafting the Business Plan. anyone interested can check out my website www.mjbusinessplan.com
Get a job.
 

mustang519

Well-Known Member
Application and all supporting documents are in. Finger prints submitted. County has approved us and our location. I am ready to get this show on the road.
 
I applied for a producer's license and expect a phone call from the LCB sometime this month. They will be asking questions to see if I know what the hell I am doing and what my general business plan is for my small tier 1 operation If I pass that muster they will almost certainly be issuing me a license DESPITE my county's zoning objections. They have been very clear that zoning is not their problem .Some 66 of us applied for a producers license in my county and 64 have been zoned out. Not a single tier 1 applicant qualifies
BUT here's the deal. Violating a zoning ordinance is no big deal. I intend to get a wholesale nursery business license- perfectly legal where I live- and intend to tell the county-- if they ask-- that I fully intend to RELOCATE since they do not want me around, but in the meantime, I am going to operate my wholesale nursery to make a living --- and to pay for the relocation that I expect to take a year. Hence my high power bill because I am growing BASIL inside my facilty
And even if caught the county merely shoots itself in the foot. Why? Because if they can somehow PROVE that you are growing pot - requiring a search warrant-- the only consequence is that you must agree to quit, but you can do so claiming mitigating circumstances-- and that means it is going to cost the county a lot in court , win or lose against dozens of law suits. No fine or jail time for the offender, again if he agrees to quit. So why NOT operate until caught And the Big Guys, the Tier 3 dudes? The max fine is $250 a day-- AFTER a citation has been issued-- and they will literally just LAUGH and pay it! So why am I making this known. Because the more people that do what I do , the longer it will take to catch us. Just go steath like always, quiet fans charcoal filter . Got a zoning problem? Get a wholesale nursery license and lie through your teeth. THEY are not playing fair, why should you
 
Will or can they get a search warrant for a mere zoning violation. The usual procedure is to send out an investigator to catch you in the act of operating an illegal business. But if you go stealth and there is no noise or odor-- and you have a wholesale nursery license to explain your high power bill -- if they can even obtain that--- he is going to sense nothing out of the ordinary by which he can issue a citation. Tell me where I am wrong so I can prepare
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
Will or can they get a search warrant for a mere zoning violation.
if you are permitted 502 you have given up the requirement for a search warrant to the grow premises.
You are also already on a list that is available to anyone including the county. If they care they can check everybody on that list for zoning violations.
 
if you are permitted 502 you have given up the requirement for a search warrant to the grow premises.
You are also already on a list that is available to anyone including the county. If they care they can check everybody on that list for zoning violations.
Once again will it be worth their time and effort to shut me down given all the potential lawsuits over it, and NOTHING happens to me if caught. And I waive a right to a search warrant by the LCB, not the county that is now the LCB's mortal enemy. THEY even now say the obstructionist counties are DIRECTLY responsible for a continuation of a black market. IF I claim its a wholesale nursery they have to go though the expensive motions to prove I am not- The LCB could care less as long as I pass inspection
FIRST they have to have a REASON to believe I am violating a zoning law- and what would that evidence be?? The whole idea is to get a year's worth of sales out of it before being forced to shut down --150k is better than nothing at all
I am going to TRY no matter what the consequences. In fact I look forward to the game
 
Another option is to , just like the big Guys are going to do, just go ahead and PAY the $250 a day fine as a cost of doing business. My production cost is going to be around $12 an ounce thanks to no labor costs- and I can prove it on paper. I could harvest 20- 24 ounces a week off of 6 plants-- or a say $3000 a week in revenue minus $1750 for the weekly fine- equals ony about $1000 a week in profit but still not a bad SS supplement
 
I am optimizing my space by going double decker using short variety plants. T5HO. 8 bulb 432 watt fixtues. Potting soil. In cubicles. Been there done that loved the results. Now to repeat on a larger scale
The ONLY costs are power, the fees, insurance, ADT, and after buying seeds once, a potting soil of choice-- after a $4500 investment in lighting- not spending that until I have a license in hand
 
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