Should We Tolerate Religion?

mountainSpliff said:

The 95% of religions you speak of maybe cover 5% of the worlds population. Also all religions have faults. As does just about everything on earth. It's natural to have faults.

I am glad that you are open to ideas and that you can respect other's opinions. Just by being 'swiss' tells me that you don't tolerate aspects of your religion. You at some point in your life asked questions, passed judgement and progressed. There have been a good few people who got angry about my opinions. I see that as being hypocritical.

Certain religious aspects have negative influence on peoples lives. This is a very broad spectrum.

Whether you like it or not, society has been becoming less tolerant of religion for a long time now. Most of Europe's countries had laws based on religion. Not the case any more. Why is that? It was illegal for gay people to get married in most parts of the world because of religion. This is changing. Why is that? Women were regarded lesser than man. This has changed, but still happens all over the world.

Do you tolerate the abuse of women? If not, then how can you tolerate a religion that does?

It would be stupid to tell people what they have to believe and even more stupid to allow someone to suffer because of anothers selfish beliefs.

To all those who have gotten angry with my comments, I am merely exposing my opinions to the scrutiny of others so that I might learn something. One of the things I have learnt here is that quite a few people are grossly intolerant of other peoples opinions without trying to understand them first. However, it is encouraging to see that there are actually quite a few people out there who are also continuously asking questions.

Inevitably the more questions people ask the more they progress in life.
If you don't understand this then why not at least try?

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Well to be blunt and to bring up my personal beliefs no my religion sees everyone equally, men and women, women are not below men nor the opposite. I try to be nuetral as far as my opinion goes pertaining to the question not to my personal belief however. Now referencing back to my original point yes it is absolutely ridiculous and of no ones right to take away the free will and free belief and thought of another but yes at the same time I also said that religion is used basically as a tool for some people and some radical groups for there own selfish wants and benefits again I stated this should not be tolerated, but religion its self the basic beliefs of something should not be taken away from someone, in my opinion if your "religion" is one that harms another person or may cause damage to someone else then this is not a true religion this is some off the wall radicalist that believe they are above others and man set laws, like I said before is not the basis of most religions. buddism, christianity, judaism and even muslims ect... (these are just common ones I can think of) all have basic principles of the golden rule and have good moral principals. I haev had the opportunity to study religion abroad and have found that even though these religions (mentioned above) all have those good basic moral principals you still come across those radicalist and self benefitign self proclaimed religious freaks, that may not be politically correct but that is what it is. Now with that being said, I am not saying religion is perfect as youmust remember it is another person interpretation of what they believe has been God ordane (god being a general reference to the higher being in any religion) but what i see again as the main issue with religion is the Exploitation of it by the wrong people ( meaning those radicals or self benfiting) lets take the great reveren jackson he exploits beyond belief or you can also look at the radical muslims that are really just terrorist usign the muslim religion as an escape goat to condon their inhumane actions. or howabout the jahova witnesses that knock on your door at 6am on sunday to hand out pamphlets ok so there are people in all walks of life and religion that give their religion a bad name from the most extreme to the minute. The point being that no matter what issue we are discussing, religion, racism ect.. there will always be issues/tension and it comes from with in the poeple involved. When you have soemthing so monumental as religion that is captivaty to a majority then you will always have those people out there who are looking to make a quick buck or use it for their own agenda. With that said I think we should not take a belief away from someone rather try to weed out the garbage. But those who will not tolerate it are just as bad as the radicals and self benefiting as they are feeding fuel to the fire.

and here I thought this was just a ganja forum glad we can all discuss topics diplomatically.

All the greatest scientist have been Christians. The exception is (possibly) Einstein, who had to flee to Christian America.

The essence of Christianity, is not just love, but also its inverse : that jealousy is the worst sin. John The Baptist was beheaded for speaking his mind, and being a popular helpful guy. The problem with religion is not that it is organised, but that it is not organised enough. Can disorganised religion be better? Not at all.

I used to be sceptical of the idea that Ganja is the tree of life, despite adhering to the 10 commandments and puffing. Then I actually read the Bible 4 times. Now my faith and my rationality are in total agreement with one another.

Read The Book with an open critical mind. You cannot be against all religion if you have not studied them all carefully

PoseidonsNet said:

All the greatest scientist have been Christians. The exception is (possibly) Einstein, who had to flee to Christian America.

The essence of Christianity, is not just love, but also its inverse : that jealousy is the worst sin. John The Baptist was beheaded for speaking his mind, and being a popular helpful guy. The problem with religion is not that it is organised, but that it is not organised enough. Can disorganised religion be better? Not at all.

I used to be sceptical of the idea that Ganja is the tree of life, despite adhering to the 10 commandments and puffing. Then I actually read the Bible 4 times. Now my faith and my rationality are in total agreement with one another.

Read The Book with an open critical mind. You cannot be against all religion if you have not studied them all carefully

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Nicely put.

'rather try to weed out the garbage'
This is what I am trying to get at.


'and here I thought this was just a ganja forum glad we can all discuss topics diplomatically.'

I love you and your avatar!!

PoseidonsNet said:

All the greatest scientist have been Christians. The exception is (possibly) Einstein, who had to flee to Christian America.

The essence of Christianity, is not just love, but also its inverse : that jealousy is the worst sin. John The Baptist was beheaded for speaking his mind, and being a popular helpful guy. The problem with religion is not that it is organised, but that it is not organised enough. Can disorganised religion be better? Not at all.

I used to be sceptical of the idea that Ganja is the tree of life, despite adhering to the 10 commandments and puffing. Then I actually read the Bible 4 times. Now my faith and my rationality are in total agreement with one another.

Read The Book with an open critical mind. You cannot be against all religion if you have not studied them all carefully

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This is the power of religion. It can rock your world right down to the core of your soul. Certainly one of the most powerful tools ever conceived. An incredibly deep beautiful maze developed for the mind. It's the good aspects and promises of religion that are used to con people into tolerating the bad aspects of religion.

I thought I would need waders for this thread, turns out I needed a full decon suit for all the bullshit.

No I don't think religion should be tolerated. It needs to be stamped out the same way we would stamp out ignorance and illogical thinking in other areas. If people believed the world to be flat, should that belief be tolerated? You can believe it if you want, in the privacy of your own home, but teaching it to other people and basing ANY decision about politics, legislation, education, or anything else that affects other people should NOT be tolerated under any circumstances. The same should go for religion.

guy incognito said:

I thought I would need waders for this thread, turns out I needed a full decon suit for all the bullshit.

No I don't think religion should be tolerated. It needs to be stamped out the same way we would stamp out ignorance and illogical thinking in other areas. If people believed the world to be flat, should that belief be tolerated? You can believe it if you want, in the privacy of your own home, but teaching it to other people and basing ANY decision about politics, legislation, education, or anything else that affects other people should NOT be tolerated under any circumstances. The same should go for religion.

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I am not willing to shred the Constitution just so you don't feel oppressed when someone wishes you a Merry Christmas.

By the way, Flat Earth theory was never stamped out.

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

They even sell tee shirts.

Do they affect me in the least? Not really. I laugh at them and I might just buy a tee shirt to wear for laughs. But other than that, the Flat Earthers are a non-factor as far as I am concerned.

So let the Christians have their zombie savior. And let Moe's followers have their pedophile prophet. The Buddists are welcome to their happy, chubby, nekkid guy. The Jews have Moses, among others I suppose. Anyway, you get the idea.

No one forces you to attend worship services. And it's been a decade or two since I was subjected to the public schools, but I'm pretty sure compulsory religious activities are unlawful.

So relax.

Johnnyorganic said:

I am not willing to shred the Constitution just so you don't feel oppressed when someone wishes you a Merry Christmas.

By the way, Flat Earth theory was never stamped out.

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

They even sell tee shirts.

Do they affect me in the least? Not really. I laugh at them and I might just buy a tee shirt to wear for laughs. But other than that, the Flat Earthers are a non-factor as far as I am concerned.

So let the Christians have their zombie savior. And let Moe's followers have their pedophile prophet. The Buddists are welcome to their happy, chubby, nekkid guy. The Jews have Moses, among others I suppose. Anyway, you get the idea.

No one forces you to attend worship services. And it's been a decade or two since I was subjected to the public schools, but I'm pretty sure compulsory religious activities are unlawful.

So relax.

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I never said I was offended nor that I had to attend worship services for anyone. The flat earth society has no influence because they are so small and the vast majority of people know it's bullshit. If they were to attempt to get schools to teach the flat earth theory they would be ridiculed and rejected AS THEY SHOULD BE.

I am not saying we should round up and torture anyone believing in god. I just think we should not tolerate ANY irrational belief system that is going to affect our lives.

If you told me you believed in unicorns, yet had zero evidence, I would think you were absolutely crazy - but it's your right to believe whatever you want no matter how insane it is. If you told me your unicorn said being gay is wrong and you want to enact legislation denying gay people certain rights you would be dismissed as delusional and no one would take you seriously.

Replace unicorn with god and it is just as ridiculous, except their delusions are often tolerated.

guy incognito said:

I never said I was offended nor that I had to attend worship services for anyone. The flat earth society has no influence because they are so small and the vast majority of people know it's bullshit. If they were to attempt to get schools to teach the flat earth theory they would be ridiculed and rejected AS THEY SHOULD BE.

I am not saying we should round up and torture anyone believing in god. I just think we should not tolerate ANY irrational belief system that is going to affect our lives.

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Just what do you mean by 'not tolerate?' Because in your previous post you said they should be stamped out, which has rather sinister connotations.

And just who would determine what is irrational and not to be tolerated?

Man made climate change is a perfect example.

Who decides which side is irrational and should be stamped out? The side that says it's a hoax, or the side that wants to cap carbon emissions and trade carbon credits?

guy incognito said:

If you told me you believed in unicorns, yet had zero evidence, I would think you were absolutely crazy - but it's your right to believe whatever you want no matter how insane it is. If you told me your unicorn said being gay is wrong and you want to enact legislation denying gay people certain rights you would be dismissed as delusional and no one would take you seriously.

Replace unicorn with god and it is just as ridiculous, except their delusions are often tolerated.

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I would really like to know who you feel would be qualified to determine what is to be tolerated and what is to be stamped out. Elected officials? No thanks. I can judge these things for myself and the Jehovah's Witnesses don't scare me one bit.

Intolerance is never a good thing. And in a free society one must occasionally tolerate something he may find unsavory, distasteful, or just plain stupid.

The First Amendment protects your right to say and believe what you want. The other side of the coin is that everyone else has that right as well.

Ours is a society that encourages the free and open exchange of ideas. You are just going to have to learn to live with it.

Live and let live. And if someone gets in your face pushing a religious belief, tell them to piss off.

Johnnyorganic said:

Just what do you mean by 'not tolerate?' Because in your previous post you said they should be stamped out, which has rather sinister connotations.

And just who would determine what is irrational and not to be tolerated?

Man made climate change is a perfect example.

Who decides which side is irrational and should be stamped out? The side that says it's a hoax, or the side that wants to cap carbon emissions and trade carbon credits?


I would really like to know who you feel would be qualified to determine what is to be tolerated and what is to be stamped out. Elected officials? No thanks. I can judge these things for myself and the Jehovah's Witnesses don't scare me one bit.

Intolerance is never a good thing. And in a free society one must occasionally tolerate something he may find unsavory, distasteful, or just plain stupid.

The First Amendment protects your right to say and believe what you want. The other side of the coin is that everyone else has that right as well.

Ours is a society that encourages the free and open exchange of ideas. You are just going to have to learn to live with it.

Live and let live. And if someone gets in your face pushing a religious belief, tell them to piss off.

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When I say "stamped out" I don't mean the government should abolish your right to believe. I mean we as humans, for our own good, ought to discourage ridiculous religious beliefs and encourage rational beliefs. Who decides what's rational? The evidence does. If you believe global warming is a hoax you should have some evidence and data to back up your claim. If you think global warming is going to destroy the earth in the next 3 years you should also have some evidence. When you have the evidence, and an unbiased approach to analyzing what the data means you can then rationally debate what it all means.

Intolerance based on uncontrollable factors, or opinions are bullshit and I hope you don't think I am condoning that. Different strokes for different folks. However, I don't feel an uneducated opinion that is not based on any evidence should be sacred and tolerated simply for the sake of tolerance. If you want to have an opinion on a matter with NO evidence, such as god, then that's fine, but I won't respect you or that belief. It still bothers me that you would elect to hold this belief in spite of the lack of evidence, but as long as you keep it to yourself I don't care. Not all religious people keep it to themselves though. Religious views are incorporate into legislation and education, and that affects EVERYONE.

Anytime you allow a religious belief, or any belief that is held with no objective evidence to determine if it's correct, to taint your thinking and analysis of a situation humanity as a whole suffers. Children are not properly educated, and rights are denied to certain individuals. All because of a fairy tale. In some states a man can go to prison for having anal sex with another consenting male adult in the privacy of their home. Please enlighten me and give me a good reason why society should tolerate that kind of bullshit.

guy incognito said:

When I say "stamped out" I don't mean the government should abolish your right to believe. I mean we as humans, for our own good, ought to discourage ridiculous religious beliefs and encourage rational beliefs. Who decides what's rational? The evidence does. If you believe global warming is a hoax you should have some evidence and data to back up your claim. If you think global warming is going to destroy the earth in the next 3 years you should also have some evidence. When you have the evidence, and an unbiased approach to analyzing what the data means you can then rationally debate what it all means.

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That is where it gets murky. Who decides what is viable evidence and what is not? Again I point to man made climate change. Each side rejects out of hand the evidence presented by the other. The climate has not warmed since 1995, but that does not stop the warmers from pursuing their agenda because they have accepted only their view as dogma and reject all dissent. So, who is the arbiter? The government? Again I say no.

guy incognito said:

Intolerance based on uncontrollable factors, or opinions are bullshit and I hope you don't think I am condoning that. Different strokes for different folks. However, I don't feel an uneducated opinion that is not based on any evidence should be sacred and tolerated simply for the sake of tolerance. If you want to have an opinion on a matter with NO evidence, such as god, then that's fine, but I won't respect you or that belief. It still bothers me that you would elect to hold this belief in spite of the lack of evidence, but as long as you keep it to yourself I don't care. Not all religious people keep it to themselves though. Religious views are incorporate into legislation and education, and that affects EVERYONE.

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They have the right not to keep it to themselves.

You have the right to ignore them.

Religion was purged from public education in 1963 thanks to the work of Madelyn Murray O'Hare.

While I agree with you that it is not acceptable to have 'In god We Trust' on our currency, property tax exemptions for houses of worship, 'under god' in the pledge of alliegance, a national holiday celebrating a zombie's birthday, and another one to celebrate it's re-animation; those things are all correctable using the power of the Constitution.

guy incognito said:

Anytime you allow a religious belief, or any belief that is held with no objective evidence to determine if it's correct, to taint your thinking and analysis of a situation humanity as a whole suffers. Children are not properly educated, and rights are denied to certain individuals. All because of a fairy tale. In some states a man can go to prison for having anal sex with another consenting male adult in the privacy of their home. Please enlighten me and give me a good reason why society should tolerate that kind of bullshit.

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Incorrect. Sodomy laws were ruled unconstitutional by the SCOTUS in 2003. You may bugger anyone you like without legal consequences as long as it is between consenting adults. See Lawrence v. Texas.

Stoner.Barbie said:

what u talking about Willis, christmas is all about Santa and presents! lol i used to believe, but now i know its all an elaborate story historicalized to control the masses with fear. but then thats just one barbies opinion.

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Which story?

The one about the jolly elf and his eight flying reindeer?

Or the less believable one about God raping Mary; producing Jesse; who was executed as a heretic, then became a zombie for 40 days before levitating into the clouds?

My brain is bleeding now that Ive read through this garbage.

No offense to any of the people here who have posted, especially all of you who went through great legnths to sound so damn intelligent.

You scholars missed one important fact.
Men are evil rotten to the fucking core.

Do you seriously think if there were no religion that leaders wouldnt use science to justify killing for profit?
or hell just doing it and justifying thier actions by thier own countries need? shit man people in masses dont need credible reasons to support war.

people in masses dont need religion or anything else to justify horrible things, American History should teach you that.

in summary

humanity is so fucked up that we dont need any reason to kill our fellow man Killing for GOD just sounds good I guess.

FeFiFoFUM said:

people in masses dont need religion or anything else to justify horrible things, American History should teach you that.

in summary

humanity is so fucked up that we dont need any reason to kill our fellow man Killing for GOD just sounds good I guess.

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exactly i have said this same exact thing before too. sorry but i dont think the core values of religion cause people to do corrupt things, i believe it is human nature to use different tactics to manipulate for personal gain and hidden agendas. what is the percentage of knowledge of our own galaxy and beyond? how far fetched in scientific terms is it to think there is something more complex than our minds can comprehend or something bigger than all of us as a whole?

Johnnyorganic said:

That is where it gets murky. Who decides what is viable evidence and what is not? Again I point to man made climate change. Each side rejects out of hand the evidence presented by the other. The climate has not warmed since 1995, but that does not stop the warmers from pursuing their agenda because they have accepted only their view as dogma and reject all dissent. So, who is the arbiter? The government? Again I say no.


They have the right not to keep it to themselves.

You have the right to ignore them.

Religion was purged from public education in 1963 thanks to the work of Madelyn Murray O'Hare.

While I agree with you that it is not acceptable to have 'In god We Trust' on our currency, property tax exemptions for houses of worship, 'under god' in the pledge of alliegance, a national holiday celebrating a zombie's birthday, and another one to celebrate it's re-animation; those things are all correctable using the power of the Constitution.


Incorrect. Sodomy laws were ruled unconstitutional by the SCOTUS in 2003. You may bugger anyone you like without legal consequences as long as it is between consenting adults. See Lawrence v. Texas.

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The scientific community decides what is valid evidence through peer review. The entire process is self correcting. I have seen tons of bullshit on both sides of that debate. The thing is though that it will eventually sort itself out and truth WILL prevail. You cannot argue against real data. You can argue that it wasn't collected through a valid method, or that someones conclusions don't agree with what the data is saying, but eventually the truth will stand on its own merit.

Religion was officially purged from public education, but religious views absolutely infect the public school system. You don't think personal religious views affect the people in charge of purchasing textbooks?

Those things are correctable through the constitution, but the fact that they even have to be corrected in the first place validates my point.

I stand corrected on the sodomy laws. That still means religious views denied the rights of people to consentingly sodomize each other from the inception of this country until 2003. Unless they had some other reason besides religion, with no real foundation in reality, to deny people those rights?

mastakoosh said:

exactly i have said this same exact thing before too. sorry but i dont think the core values of religion cause people to do corrupt things, i believe it is human nature to use different tactics to manipulate for personal gain and hidden agendas. what is the percentage of knowledge of our own galaxy and beyond? how far fetched in scientific terms is it to think there is something more complex than our minds can comprehend or something bigger than all of us as a whole?

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They DO though. They are inherently irrational. People will do shitty things, and i'm not saying religion is to blame for all of it. It certainly is to blame for a lot of it. If you hate gay people, or you think abortion is wrong, and you have no real fundamental underlying reasoning, only religious views (which from experience is NOT a minority of people who hate gays and abortions) then you are a fool and your opinion should NOT be respected or tolerated.

I dont even understand your other questions. "how far fetched in scientific terms is it to think there is something more complex than our minds can comprehend or something bigger than all of us as a whole?"

I don't know. Do you have any evidence to suggest this is the case, or is it purely wild speculation? If you have some reason to think there is, please share it. If not then I don't understand why the view should be given equal weight.

guy incognito said:

The scientific community decides what is valid evidence through peer review. The entire process is self correcting. I have seen tons of bullshit on both sides of that debate. The thing is though that it will eventually sort itself out and truth WILL prevail. You cannot argue against real data. You can argue that it wasn't collected through a valid method, or that someones conclusions don't agree with what the data is saying, but eventually the truth will stand on its own merit.

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And once again, who decides what is valid?

The rabbit hole is there, but you refuse to see it.

guy incognito said:

Religion was officially purged from public education, but religious views absolutely infect the public school system. You don't think personal religious views affect the people in charge of purchasing textbooks?

Those things are correctable through the constitution, but the fact that they even have to be corrected in the first place validates my point.

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Actually, it does not.

We do not live in a vacuum. History is happening all around us.

Do you honesly think Germans in the in the 1930's said to themselves, "Yea, we're Nazis now. Awesome!"

guy incognito said:

I stand corrected on the sodomy laws. That still means religious views denied the rights of people to consentingly sodomize each other from the inception of this country until 2003. Unless they had some other reason besides religion, with no real foundation in reality, to deny people those rights?

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Every process takes time. You cannot simply snap your fingers and expect perfection.

Respect to be Respected man..

NoB

Where is the evidence that science is correct about evolution, or the creation of the universe.... I KNOW religion can not be proven, but science cant explain shit either. the big bang theory? lol seriously? or is that theory now outdated and replaced with a better one that still... doesnt prove shit.

Also, what is peer evaluation when the majority of the people evaluating the subject already think the same way in the first place?
Hell... I could get 1000 police officers and govt officials who are experts in their field to agree that cannabis is a dangerous substance that supports terrorism. but we all know thats bullshit right.


Hope I made my point.