Sea of Green- frustrated, please help.

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Harlequin

Well-Known Member
Hello folks,

I've been growing indoors for about 2 years now, and I'm really starting to become frustrated with my yields. I have a 4' x 8' table with a 1000w HPS on a light rail... due to overhead contraints (my cloning/mothering/veging area is below) I have been using SoG and growing what were sold to me as NYCD clones, though I'm beginning to wonder about this. I have been using about 3 per sq feet for flowering, about 50 plants under 19.5 sq feet (I hadn't been using the whole table, up until this run... don't ask) and getting a yield ranging from 10 to 14 z's per turn. My flowering period has been exceedingly long with these "Diesel" plants, around 11 to 12 weeks under 12/12. I had been using 5.5" pots with ProMix soil, but will be stepping it up to 8" pots this time around. I have been using the complete Fox Farm system (liquids and solubles) at a pretty low concentration, as I have had problems with nute burn using it at their recommended doses. Light has been around 1 foot from the tops of the plants, although I may need to go up a bit higher this time to cover the sides of the table.

This time around, I've decided to try one pot per sq foot, and I'm using the entire table this time, so I have 32 plants on 32 sq feet of table. I have been vegging for 4 weeks (including 2 weeks of cloning time), so that they are around 6" to 8" tall when I put them under the HPS, and the finished height has been around 18". I've been pruning 1/2 the height after 1 week under 12/12, and will be training the tops to control height and hopefully increase some side branching yield.

My question is, does anyone see in this setup what should be done differently to increase yield? I've bought some White Widow and Master Kush seeds, and will hopefully be throwing some clones of each into the mix within the next week or so, hoping this will reveal the false NYCD to be what it is. Oh, and when should I begin training the tops? And for how long do I need to do this? Throughout flowering? Should I even bother pruning the bottom branches to 50% of height? Any help and advice anyone can offer would be hugely appreciated, and thanks in advance.

H.
 
ideit

ideit

Well-Known Member
one plant per sq ft, 4 week veg, this isnt really a sog setup, is it? just sounds like a regular perpetual harvest. sounds like youre lollipoping your plants anyways, this could be a problem. the point of lollipoping is typically for a sog setup so you can squeeze the plants in closer together. if you arent doing this you shouldnt be trimming that much off. Even in sog you should only be trimming off the bottom 1/3.

Taking 10-11 weeks i hear is fairly common for soil grows (i havent used soil in a long time though, so i dont remember first hand). i get about 8 weeks + 2-5 days in my hydro setup, you may want to consider a switch. Since you're already in a tray wouldn't be hard to switch to an ebb/flow setup. hydro will give you more control over your nutrients and root o2 levels, and since you sound experienced I'd definately consider the switch.

I did a little math there, and using your stated 19.5 sq ft yielding ~12oz is pretty low, as that's 17.2g per sq.ft (or .34g per watt)
I don't think I can really help much more unless we see your setup, would you mind taking some pictures?
 
D

deusvult

Active Member
I've run a true SOG for nearly 2 years & essentially gave up on the amount of work required to keep it up & running... with a lot of plants that is. I've modified the room to 2 halves & cycle them every month... and grow the plants a little larger/fewer in number.

With the SOG however, plant yields would be between 6-12g per plant depending heavily upon genetics. When getting to the 12+g per plant, these were veging to 6", otherwise flowered them asap after taking root (3-4"). @6-8", they get larger & can yield in excess of 14-16g per plant, as am running now @ appx 1 plant per 10 square inches. This, again, heavily depends upon genetics chosen.

Your NYCD is not an ideal candidate for this type of spacing/scheduling. For starters, the yield is genetically lower vs a Rhino or AK, which are great candidates for close spacing yet with high yield per plant. The plant is lankier & obviously with a very long finish time. This is most likely 1/3 of your problems. Switch strains & you will notice a big difference.

I'm also guessing that the other 2/3 of yield issues is cultural. Switch away from a true SOG- fewer plants makes for an easier grow. Focus on the fewer number & make them healthy- start to finish. Don't get caught up in all the BS, e.g., additives, training tricks, topping, etc, & focus on the very, very, very basics of keeping a healthy plant. Making a simple, healthy plant is the other 1/3 of the equation. The final 1/3, imo, is experience within your chosen methodology- stick with it, learn from mistakes & get better with each harvest. Think long-term here. Best.
 
morrisgreenberg

morrisgreenberg

Well-Known Member
Harlequin said:
Hello folks,

I've been growing indoors for about 2 years now, and I'm really starting to become frustrated with my yields. I have a 4' x 8' table with a 1000w HPS on a light rail... due to overhead contraints (my cloning/mothering/veging area is below) I have been using SoG and growing what were sold to me as NYCD clones, though I'm beginning to wonder about this. I have been using about 3 per sq feet for flowering, about 50 plants under 19.5 sq feet (I hadn't been using the whole table, up until this run... don't ask) and getting a yield ranging from 10 to 14 z's per turn. My flowering period has been exceedingly long with these "Diesel" plants, around 11 to 12 weeks under 12/12. I had been using 5.5" pots with ProMix soil, but will be stepping it up to 8" pots this time around. I have been using the complete Fox Farm system (liquids and solubles) at a pretty low concentration, as I have had problems with nute burn using it at their recommended doses. Light has been around 1 foot from the tops of the plants, although I may need to go up a bit higher this time to cover the sides of the table.

This time around, I've decided to try one pot per sq foot, and I'm using the entire table this time, so I have 32 plants on 32 sq feet of table. I have been vegging for 4 weeks (including 2 weeks of cloning time), so that they are around 6" to 8" tall when I put them under the HPS, and the finished height has been around 18". I've been pruning 1/2 the height after 1 week under 12/12, and will be training the tops to control height and hopefully increase some side branching yield.

My question is, does anyone see in this setup what should be done differently to increase yield? I've bought some White Widow and Master Kush seeds, and will hopefully be throwing some clones of each into the mix within the next week or so, hoping this will reveal the false NYCD to be what it is. Oh, and when should I begin training the tops? And for how long do I need to do this? Throughout flowering? Should I even bother pruning the bottom branches to 50% of height? Any help and advice anyone can offer would be hugely appreciated, and thanks in advance.

H.
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you have the light rail thats a good building block for yield, esp. with a 1000w, your getting close to 1/2gram per watt,not bad. and starting your flower at a plant 8inches tall, perhaps finishing at 20-24in in height...thats not bad at all dude, the only way you can improve on this is stepping it up to hydro....trust me you might double your production, only way if your dialed in with soil is to vegg longer, and your new idea of a sqft per plant is good too. Prune the bottom 1/3, ya dont have to go so high, trust your own eye, you been in the game for a while , just get goo air flow under there, you would want to go extreme on the pruning if you went screen of green, also about the training, you ever heard of super cropping? this helps big time, its when you bend the branches back down to open up the middle so the branch and center of plant get more light, or tie them down Low Stress Training...IMO make life easy for yourself and get any old run of the mill hydro setup going and you wont have to touch the plants
 
H

Harlequin

Well-Known Member
Lol Okay well, it seems that most of you agree that SoG should go the way of the dinosaur, or at least that's it's more trouble than it's worth. However, my setup (as it currently stands) only allows for 18 to 20" at finish... this is why I was considering training the tops at some point in the cycle, and I also figure this will give me a bit more square footage of coverage, with the plants spaced out a bit more. My follup questions are:

1. When should I train the tops?
2. What should I expect in going from 3 to1 plant per sq foot- lower yield? Same? Higher?
3. What should I do differently with less density? ideit suggested not pruning the bottoms of the plants, just leaving them be to fill more area. This makes sense to me, anyone else?

I'll take some pictures tonight when the lights come on...
 
H

Harlequin

Well-Known Member
Oh yeah, and does anyone know how White Widow and/or Master Kush will respond to this technique? They are both mostly Indica, I believe, so I figure this will help. Thanks again.
 
morrisgreenberg

morrisgreenberg

Well-Known Member
my indicas really responded well when i LST'd them, they grow massive bushes, with your height restriction your options are limited, i wouldnt try scrog for soil, but scrog might be your best route, with scrog if vegged long enough one plant can fill a room and no worries about height, but the drawback is if and when you have to flush your soil its a problem,unless your screen is attatched to the single pot and not a whole net covering your table, but to make it worth your while you want a nice sized screen, atleast double your pot size, u have an 4.x8 and can go less plants to do more....maybe turn that 4x8 into an ebb and flow? also how tall is your table? is it absolutly necessary to have it? maybe just put your plant on the floor to save space
 
biz

biz

Well-Known Member
What he said ^ . Force feeding and unrestricted root growth makes the difference; go water bro.
 
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Harlequin

Well-Known Member
Yeah, yeah, I know, I need to switch over to hydro... I get it :P Main issue is SPACE! I really have nowhere to put the reservoir, that's the only reason I haven't switched. That and laziness, I guess. I have a REALLY SMALL SPACE, total room dimensions are 8' tall x 8' wide x 6' deep... not much to work with. If I could convince my gf she didn't need her darkroom, I could expand... of course, if I could convince the earth it didn't need gravity, then we would all fly, so there you have it. I will take some pics and upload 2nite and see if anyone else has any ideas... gracias for what has been given so far!!

H.
 
H

Harlequin

Well-Known Member
Okay, so I'm going to try to upload some pics, though it didn't work last night when I tried. My internet connect sucks. Here goes. I know they aren't the greatest, but I'm no photographer. This is 6 days into flowering, btwS The one in the middle labled "EM" is an Early Misty I have thrown in just to see what happens... the rest are "Diesel" (or so I was told)... they look awfully Sativa to be D, don't they? The last pic is just my vent system.
 

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H

Harlequin

Well-Known Member
I'm going to give it a go, I've decided, after this harvest... again, the only thought is to put the reservoir on the other side of the actual wall, in my basement.... I have a couple of friends who have grown hydro in the past, perhaps I can enlist their help.
 
ideit

ideit

Well-Known Member
Everyone hating on sog :P I'm runnin a sog setup and its not that much work, but then again im using hydro which cuts down dramatically on maintenance. i check on em maybe 4-5 times a week but i usually only have to top off the rez about twice a week.
 
H

Harlequin

Well-Known Member
ideit said:
Everyone hating on sog :P I'm runnin a sog setup and its not that much work, but then again im using hydro which cuts down dramatically on maintenance. i check on em maybe 4-5 times a week but i usually only have to top off the rez about twice a week.
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How many plants per square foot do you run? What's the finished height? Yield per square? Yield per plant? What's your light system? Ebb and flow table?
 
morrisgreenberg

morrisgreenberg

Well-Known Member
how about this, it may be a pain in the ass, but.... you go aero-homemade rubbermade style, probably could use 4 of them in your space, use small plants cus the tubs are around 16-20in tall, and grow 20 plants per unit, start flowering them right after your clone roots, bro i seen "see more buds" vol 1, go look it up on youtube and see what this guy does with a 4x6 space...4lbs 100plants about 1/2oz per all finiched at 12-18"tall...its just requires a ton of light and a really good vent system, i was mortified when i seen this yieled and guess what, 14-28grams per plant is very attainable with hardcore lighting, really dense nugs, after watching this video i am adding another 1000w in a 4x7 closet....2000w total...i need poundage for christsake!
 
H

Harlequin

Well-Known Member
morrisgreenberg said:
how about this, it may be a pain in the ass, but.... you go aero-homemade rubbermade style, probably could use 4 of them in your space, use small plants cus the tubs are around 16-20in tall, and grow 20 plants per unit, start flowering them right after your clone roots, bro i seen "see more buds" vol 1, go look it up on youtube and see what this guy does with a 4x6 space...4lbs 100plants about 1/2oz per all finiched at 12-18"tall...its just requires a ton of light and a really good vent system, i was mortified when i seen this yieled and guess what, 14-28grams per plant is very attainable with hardcore lighting, really dense nugs, after watching this video i am adding another 1000w in a 4x7 closet....2000w total...i need poundage for christsake!
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Thanks man, I'm coming to realize (reluctantly) that I need 1) to go hydro, and 2) more light. My electric bill isn't going to love me for this one.

I'll check out that vid
 
ideit

ideit

Well-Known Member
Harlequin said:
How many plants per square foot do you run? What's the finished height? Yield per square? Yield per plant? What's your light system? Ebb and flow table?
Click to expand...
I use DWC actually, with 6 plants per 20" x 14" bucket (4 buckets atm, about to increase to 5, also upping to 8 plants per soon). 12/12 after clones develop roots, no veg. Finished height is about 12-18". 2x 250w hps lights. Yield per bucket has been slightly under 100g, but I've recently made some improvements so we'll see what happens. That gives about 16g per plant.

I did some math to get it in sq ft for ya:
total flowering space = 7.78 sq ft
watts/sq ft = 64.3
g per watt = 0.8 (working to improve this)

It's a small space, but I think I make a decent use of it.
 
morrisgreenberg

morrisgreenberg

Well-Known Member
ideit said:
I use DWC actually, with 6 plants per 20" x 14" bucket (4 buckets atm, about to increase to 5, also upping to 8 plants per soon). 12/12 after clones develop roots, no veg. Finished height is about 12-18". 2x 250w hps lights. Yield per bucket has been slightly under 100g, but I've recently made some improvements so we'll see what happens. That gives about 16g per plant.

I did some math to get it in sq ft for ya:
total flowering space = 7.78 sq ft
watts/sq ft = 64.3
g per watt = 0.8 (working to improve this)

It's a small space, but I think I make a decent use of it.
Click to expand...
0.8grams per wat is solid, i think most people would agree 1/2gram a watt is good, from watching see more buds, the recurring theme is more lights than you would normal put, and closer to the plants, and regularly the featured gardens on that video were pulling atleast 2LB per 1000w hps, only issue i see is when u have a rez in the room if it gets over 75F u will have issues, my case i have a 5kbtu a/c ducted directly to my rez to keep it in the 60's or i would have gone back to soil, i became such a lazy meatball since going aero, all i do is look at the garden, no need to pull out large buckets and bust my ass
 
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