Science Vrs The Bible .... explain to me Gobeklitepe

Kynes,

Have you read The Beginnings of Western Science, by Lindberg? I'm only part way through it, but it discusses the contributions of Islamists to the stream of thought.
I had known about their importance in bringing Algebra to the west, but did not know they did so much for Optics and Medicine as well.

However, what I'm boggled by is "what happened after"? Was it just a blip on the radar? Did they have this one period of great enlightenment, then poof?
Perhaps a plague destroyed their greatest minds in pursuit of science? Or the Crusades...?

heckler73 said:

Kynes,

Have you read The Beginnings of Western Science, by Lindberg? I'm only part way through it, but it discusses the contributions of Islamists to the stream of thought.
I had known about their importance in bringing Algebra to the west, but did not know they did so much for Optics and Medicine as well.

However, what I'm boggled by is "what happened after"? Was it just a blip on the radar? Did they have this one period of great enlightenment, then poof?
Perhaps a plague destroyed their greatest minds in pursuit of science? Or the Crusades...?

Click to expand...

i am familiar with many of those assertions, but not the specific book to which you refer.

during the "Dark Ages" after the fall of rome the arab and persian world expanded into territory formerly held by the greeks, and thus came into possession of a great deal of greek and roman literature and science.

Later, when Islamania swept the Orient this information was already well established in asia minor. Even later, when the "Sunnah of Mohammed" was invented, and all things which were not moslem in origin became heresy, those in power simply adopted "algebra" (already used by the romans, greeks and ancient egyptians) and all the other things moslems claim "they invented", and insisted they had not simply found this shit lying about when the western world was busy kicking itself in the nuts.

the knowledge of the greeks was not preserved exclusively by the moslems, it was also preserved by the persians, the zoroastrians, and other societies which were not subject to the spastic turmoil engulfing europa at the time as wells as a few monastic and ascetic orders of christianity (ie;the franciscans, the jesuits etc... ) and a few secret societies and a few secret libraries dedicated to keeping knowledge alive, no matter how hard the popes tried to snuff it out.

before one gets all deamy-eyed and wistful for the moslems' dedication to preserving knowledge, remember that THEY were the ones who destroyed the ancient Library of Alexandria for the final time.
http://www.mediahistory.umn.edu/archive/alexandria.html

Dr Kynes said:

Later, when Islamania swept the Orient this information was already well established in asia minor. Even later, when the "Sunnah of Mohammed" was invented, and all things which were not moslem in origin became heresy, those in power simply adopted "algebra" (already used by the romans, greeks and ancient egyptians) and all the other things moslems claim "they invented", and insisted they had not simply found this shit lying about when the western world was busy kicking itself in the nuts.

the knowledge of the greeks was not preserved exclusively by the moslems, it was also preserved by the persians, the zoroastrians, and other societies which were not subject to the spastic turmoil engulfing europa at the time as wells as a few monastic and ascetic orders of christianity (ie;the franciscans, the jesuits etc... ) and a few secret societies and a few secret libraries dedicated to keeping knowledge alive, no matter how hard the popes tried to snuff it out.

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Those are valid points. No contention from me (although you forgot to mention the Indians )...

Upon (re-)reading chapter 8, I think I can summarize some points of Lindberg's analysis.
Nestorian Christians were important in bringing the translational and medical expertise in the beginning.
The mathematics was mostly a refinement of Greek work, and the first works in "algebra" were devoid of mathematics as we consider it today.
Their greatest works were mostly with Rainbows, Eyes, Heart circulation and Astronomy.

Really, they didn't "invent" anything special, but rather allowed for an environment where natural advances in methodology could be achieved more efficiently (i.e. hospitals, madrasas for math, observatories). As well, private tutoring (being the only way to get mentored education otherwise) seemed to be an industry of importance.
And the practicality of science was encouraged:
Logic for Law; mathematics for commerce, governmental record-keeping, surveying, and engineering; astrology for casting horoscopes and interpreting omens; astronomy for fixing the calendar and determining the direction of Mecca and the times of daily prayer; and medicine for a wide variety of ailments. [pgs. 191-2]

However, he doesn't have a definitive answer as to why they fell out of favour as an incubator (wars, beginning of early European Renaissance, loss of Spain where the "greater years" took place). But even into the 16th century, they were still considered in high regard for mathematical treatises. So maybe there was enough transmission of basic scientific foundations into Europe that they didn't matter anymore in the larger picture?

heckler73 said:

Those are valid points. No contention from me (although you forgot to mention the Indians )...

Upon (re-)reading chapter 8, I think I can summarize some points of Lindberg's analysis.
Nestorian Christians were important in bringing the translational and medical expertise in the beginning.
The mathematics was mostly a refinement of Greek work, and the first works in "algebra" were devoid of mathematics as we consider it today.
Their greatest works were mostly with Rainbows, Eyes, Heart circulation and Astronomy.

Really, they didn't "invent" anything special, but rather allowed for an environment where natural advances in methodology could be achieved more efficiently (i.e. hospitals, madrasas for math, observatories). As well, private tutoring (being the only way to get mentored education otherwise) seemed to be an industry of importance.
And the practicality of science was encouraged:
Logic for Law; mathematics for commerce, governmental record-keeping, surveying, and engineering; astrology for casting horoscopes and interpreting omens; astronomy for fixing the calendar and determining the direction of Mecca and the times of daily prayer; and medicine for a wide variety of ailments. [pgs. 191-2]

However, he doesn't have a definitive answer as to why they fell out of favour as an incubator (wars, beginning of early European Renaissance, loss of Spain where the "greater years" took place). But even into the 16th century, they were still considered in high regard for mathematical treatises. So maybe there was enough transmission of basic scientific foundations into Europe that they didn't matter anymore in the larger picture?

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yeah nobody ever talks about what happened in islam in the 1200's

they got their asses paddled and were forced to retreat. their invasion of europe was crushed at the walls of vienna, and they had to slink back home in disgrace.

this caused the religious castes to really up the crazy quotient, and spawned the birth of fundamentalist cults which persist today, including the schissm between the nizari and mustaali shiites in persia, the rise of the caliphate of morrocco and the barbary pirates, etc etc etc.

islam slipped into a dark age of voodoo blind faith, and rabid hate thats still squirming through it's veins to this day.

this time, between 1100 and 1800 saw the invention of the burkha to dominate women(unheard of in mohammed's time) the rise of the mohammedan slave trade, the institution of the Jizya (tax on non-moslems as a protection racket) and the general descent into barbarism which still persists.

in the 1800's and early 1900's some moslem nations almost escaped the dark age, but like crabs in a bucket, the fundamentalists pulled them back down into the shit, and the cheif crab at that time doin most of the pulling, was muhammad ibn abd al wahhab the founder of Wahhabism.

yep, looks like Biostudent couldnt rustle up a substantive claim, but hey, "Biblical Scholars" have been trying to do that same trick for ~200 years with no success.

Dr Kynes said:

yeah nobody ever talks about what happened in islam in the 1200's
...
this time, between 1100 and 1800 saw the invention of the burkha to dominate women(unheard of in mohammed's time) the rise of the mohammedan slave trade, the institution of the Jizya (tax on non-moslems as a protection racket) and the general descent into barbarism which still persists.

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That's a plausible branch of the myriad scenarios leading to their fall.
But I had another thought; could it be this was when Freemasons began taking over the transmission of science?
From my understanding, the earliest lodge records come from the 11th century (sure, they may have existed before then). So this would have been about the time of Islamic Science's ascendency, which peaked ~13th century...

I think you mentioned that in passing earlier, no? The "secret societies"... But good luck finding that in an academic history book... And it's difficult to take the Masons' word seriously, too. Their tales are almost as fanciful as those of epileptic prophets and water-walkers...

Islamic engineers, though... They did have a keen understanding of acoustic physics (i.e. parabolic reflectors), which probably led to their hypotheses about light...

But, I still don't have a comprehensive narrative for that period between Islamic Science's peak and Copernicus...
I need to finish Lindberg's book (plenty of chapters after 8, ).

heckler73 said:

That's a plausible branch of the myriad scenarios leading to their fall.
But I had another thought; could it be this was when Freemasons began taking over the transmission of science?
From my understanding, the earliest lodge records come from the 11th century (sure, they may have existed before then). So this would have been about the time of Islamic Science's ascendency, which peaked ~13th century...

I think you mentioned that in passing earlier, no? The "secret societies"... But good luck finding that in an academic history book... And it's difficult to take the Masons' word seriously, too. Their tales are almost as fanciful as those of epileptic prophets and water-walkers...

Islamic engineers, though... They did have a keen understanding of acoustic physics (i.e. parabolic reflectors), which probably led to their hypotheses about light...

But, I still don't have a comprehensive narrative for that period between Islamic Science's peak and Copernicus...
I need to finish Lindberg's book (plenty of chapters after 8, ).

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"Secret Societies" does NOT mean Freemasons.

there are actual secret societies, rarely mentioned outside their own circles, some with very narrow interests, like collecting old manuscripts.

the Freemasons are not really a secret society, they are a "Secretive Society", their existence is widely know, and what they do within is the secret (sort of).

despite their claims , the freemasons were actually founded as a trade guild (secret because it was illegal) for, now hold onto your hats here...

Free Stone Masons.

Builders were highly in demand throughout europe during the middle ages, toi build cathedrals, castles, manor houses, monuments, palaces etc... but their skills were esoteric, handed down from master to apprentice through the Dark Ages, and there were not architectural colleges.

masons would travel from land to land building various structure for various princes lords and popes, and then it was off to the next project. often times when a project was done, the lord would stiff them, figuring they got what they wanted, so screw the builder. the masons would be robbed, ejected from the lord's lands, and told to eat a dick. thus they formed a secret guild, so any lord who fucked over a member would be noted, and when his shit needed repair, or he wanted some new structure, the masons would be aware of his shenanigans, and tell him to pound sand, or charge him double, payment in advance.

builders were also Engineers, needed for sieges. putting walls up is one thing, tearing them down is quite another, and who could know how to drop a wall faster than the asshole who helped build it? as such, masons were often conscripted into service by keeping their membership roles secret, the Free masons could help to keep themselves Free, to engage in Masonry.

all the other shit, about ancient secret mystical knowledge, and service to "Lucifer the Light Bringer" is just stagecraft to frighten and fascinate the rubes.

and then there's REAL secret societies...

Dr Kynes said:

"Secret Societies" does NOT mean Freemasons.

there are actual secret societies, rarely mentioned outside their own circles, some with very narrow interests, like collecting old manuscripts.
...
Builders were highly in demand throughout europe during the middle ages, toi build cathedrals, castles, manor houses, monuments, palaces etc... but their skills were esoteric, handed down from master to apprentice through the Dark Ages, and there were not architectural colleges.

masons would travel from land to land building various structure for various princes lords and popes, and then it was off to the next project. often times when a project was done, the lord would stiff them, figuring they got what they wanted, so screw the builder. the masons would be robbed, ejected from the lord's lands, and told to eat a dick. thus they formed a secret guild, so any lord who fucked over a member would be noted, and when his shit needed repair, or he wanted some new structure, the masons would be aware of his shenanigans, and tell him to pound sand, or charge him double, payment in advance.

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This is what I was talking about, though. Perhaps it was through Engineers and (stone)Masons that the tide of Science shifted to Europe from Islam
Oh... BTW when I use the word Islam in this case, I don't mean Muslims per se. I'm talking about the Nation-State or "empire".

Again though, this is just some Sunday morning, wake-n-bake rambling on my part. I need to learn the orthodox narrative of Science's Western history for this period first, before trying to guess some background plot of a novel...

heckler73 said:

This is what I was talking about, though. Perhaps it was through Engineers and (stone)Masons that the tide of Science shifted to Europe from Islam
Oh... BTW when I use the word Islam in this case, I don't mean Muslims per se. I'm talking about the Nation-State or "empire".

Again though, this is just some Sunday morning, wake-n-bake rambling on my part. I need to learn the orthodox narrative of Science's Western history for this period first, before trying to guess some background plot of a novel...

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Spoiler Alert:
Heisenberg did it.
but nobody can prove it.

PetFlora said:

Both have been highly controlled by the powers that were

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Because both are issues of knowledge that man might not respect.

Mad Hamish said:

Science and Religion are not competing paradigms at all. The one, Religion, does NOT claim to be based on fact. The definition of faith alone enlightens us to this fact, and it is a damn shame fundamentalists get that bit wrong, confusing faith and fact. .

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indeed. i have been saying this for months... If Christians had any shred of evidence, the entire bible would be focusing on that and not faith. because who needs faith when you've got evidence?

heckler73 said:

Kynes,

Have you read The Beginnings of Western Science, by Lindberg? I'm only part way through it, but it discusses the contributions of Islamists to the stream of thought.
I had known about their importance in bringing Algebra to the west, but did not know they did so much for Optics and Medicine as well.

However, what I'm boggled by is "what happened after"? Was it just a blip on the radar? Did they have this one period of great enlightenment, then poof?
Perhaps a plague destroyed their greatest minds in pursuit of science? Or the Crusades...?

Click to expand...

or this guy...

darrellduaner said:

or this guy...

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i had to use the google image search to identify who that was supposed to be (but thats the point wasnt it), and no i have not bothered to read alghazali, but i dont read western mysitic theologian psuedo-philosophers, so why would i waste my time with a persian one?

my time would be better spent re-reading Dan Drown's Da Vinci Code, at least that shit gets a few laughs for it's absurd postulations.

whats next? you gonna recommend i read Zacharias Sitchin's seminal (and by that i mean execrable) scribblings on the meaning which only he can find in sumerian tablets about ancient alien gods and their dark star "Nibiru"?

Dr Kynes said:

i had to use the google image search to identify who that was supposed to be (but thats the point wasnt it), and no i have not bothered to read alghazali, but i dont read western mysitic theologian psuedo-philosophers, so why would i waste my time with a persian one?

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so did I
It turns out, al-Ghazali was probably a key figure in keeping Islamic Sciences from developing (but I'm too lazy to go digging up a French book...I have more important things to read and decipher). However, the term science, in this case, is not the same as what we were discussing earlier.

[HR][/HR]Another of al-Ghazali's major works is Ihya' Ulum al-Din or Ihya'u Ulumiddin (The Revival of Religious Sciences). It covers almost all fields of Islamic sciences: fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence), kalam (theology) and sufism. It contains four major sections: Acts of worship (Rub' al-'ibadat), Norms of Daily Life (Rub' al-'adatat), The ways to Perdition (Rub' al-muhlikat) and The Ways to Salvation (Rub' al-munjiyat). The book has attracted much positive criticism: "If all Islamic sciences were made to disappear, they could be taken back from Ihya'u Ulumiddin." He then wrote a brief version of this book in Persian under The Alchemy of Happiness (Kimiya-yi sa'ādat).

[HR][/HR]
So although an interesting sidebar, it is perhaps not relevant.

In the beginning the heavens were an empty void until this big bang thing occured then a few billion years later along came us(homo sapien) who seem to be apparently the last living creature that was place apon the earth or so it appears... I say it all sounds way to familiar from both directions.

heckler73 said:

Kynes,

Have you read The Beginnings of Western Science, by Lindberg? I'm only part way through it, but it discusses the contributions of Islamists to the stream of thought.
I had known about their importance in bringing Algebra to the west, but did not know they did so much for Optics and Medicine as well.

However, what I'm boggled by is "what happened after"? Was it just a blip on the radar? Did they have this one period of great enlightenment, then poof?
Perhaps a plague destroyed their greatest minds in pursuit of science? Or the Crusades...?

Click to expand...

It all comes from India. The number Zero, astronomy, optics (?) medicine. None of that was "introduced." It is but a short walk of 10K miles between India and Greece.

What happened was they never had all this greatness that was attributed. This is the Abrahamic West, and Islam is a child of Abraham.

All the knowledge was stolen by the Muslims in conquest. That is the sole extent of the brain power, even today.

bird mcbride said:

In the beginning the heavens were an empty void until this big bang thing occured then a few billion years later along came us(homo sapien) who seem to be apparently the last living creature that was placed upon the earth or so it appears... I say it all sounds way to familiar from both directions.

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Placed? Placed by what? See that is the big break down. Upon..you mean on Earth, right...only the Bible says upon. And so why does it appear that way at all? Some old book?

First you assume an all power. Then you give it attributes. But, I will tell you the main attribute ascribed to God by all religion.

UN-KNOWABLE. And all religions say we must do this first.

KNOW SELF.

So, to me it is a simple equation. Make up God but say only in yourselves you can know. But, then go direct to smottting an smitting and hell, etc. Punishment for enemies, Karama, Strictures, false arguments of Faith. Fear and Doubt.

This means to me, we are just a bunch of bully masochists, drunk on power. And we make up Hell and Heaven as a THREAT.

Doer said:

It all comes from India. The number Zero, astronomy, optics (?) medicine. None of that was "introduced." It is but a short walk of 10K miles between India and Greece.

What happened was they never had all this greatness that was attributed. This is the Abrahamic West, and Islam is a child of Abraham.

All the knowledge was stolen by the Muslims in conquest. That is the sole extent of the brain power, even today.

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It may all come from India, but it did not remain the fountainhead... Knowledge evolves through societies over time, and during the 11th-12th centuries, the Islamic world was the hub for scientific progress. That is all I was suggesting earlier. The question of whether or not they "stole" anything is irrelevant unless one wishes to compare how Europeans "stole" from the Islamic world.

bird mcbride said:

In the beginning the heavens were an empty void until this big bang thing occured then a few billion years later along came us(homo sapien) who seem to be apparently the last living creature that was place apon the earth or so it appears... I say it all sounds way to familiar from both directions.

Click to expand...

horseshit.

in the begining the world was barren, until a little stone fell from Beyond, making a hole in the walls between worlds through which came a little trickle of water which filled up the seas, then later Others came through the hole to see what was there, Cernunnous and his consort Ard Rhion, and together they made all the creatures of the world we see today, for their own amusement.

Dr Kynes said:

yep, looks like Biostudent couldnt rustle up a substantive claim, but hey, "Biblical Scholars" have been trying to do that same trick for ~200 years with no success.

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Not worth wasting my time on this kind of tripe. Bring verifiable references by verifiable authors not somebody who's only given credential is a Hotmail email address.

smokinafatty said:

Evolution doesn't exist to threaten your religion, and you don't have to feel that it does. It's the way of life. Maybe your Heman set it in motion.

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I see no qualm between religion and evolution.