S&P downgrades US credit rating from AAA

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Did you forget to include your link?
I got the full fucking text dude. The whole thing. If you read it I am assured your only logical conclusion will be that because enough cuts were not made and the ceiling was raised is the reason behind the downgrade. Continued congressional in fighting is the reason for the future negative outlook only.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/sp-downgrades-us-aa-outlook-negative-full-text
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/sp-downgrades-us-aa-outlook-negative-full-text
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/sp-downgrades-us-aa-outlook-negative-full-text
 

MuyLocoNC

Well-Known Member
I think it was 40 members of Congress signed a pledge to not raise the debt ceiling knowing not doing so would cause the US to default at worst or be downgraded at best.

This is exactly what the Tea Party set out to do. Make Obama look bad no matter how much it hurts America or Americans. Got to give them credit. They are #winning! Too bad they will do so at all costs. Take a look around. See what the 2010 elections have done? Told you so.

Wow, this guy is a fucking idiot isn't he. He doesn't even address the replies to his own posts.

Your question has been answered several times. I was about to answer it as well before I saw they beat me to the punch.

Let me say it again real slowly. Not one Republican voted for default, because as we have all heard now FROM THE ADMINISTRATION, there was ZERO chance of a default. If the debt ceiling hadn't been increased, the only way we could have defaulted is if Obama had specifically chosen to. And even in that impossible situation, it wouldn't have been the Republicans fault, would it dolt?

The reality is not raising the debt ceiling would have forced the type of spending cuts that we will surely face in the future...that's it.

I won't even get into the fact that more Democrats in the House voted against the debt ceiling increase than Republicans. Or should we even bother to mention the Democrats COULD have COMPROMISED and cut well over 4 trillion (over 10 years) in spending with no tax increases and avoided the whole mess. THEY were just as unwilling to compromise as the Conservatives.


The only reason you think the Tea Party members weren't willing to compromise is because you MISTAKENLY think the debt ceiling increase was mandatory to avoid default. You're absolutely incorrect on that. Raising the debt ceiling WAS the Conservative's contribution to the compromise.
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
Do you think we would have been downgraded had Obama got the Bush Tax cuts eliminated like he wanted? One could read that both way right Drama?

This is also in the S&P statement:

We view President Obama’s and Congressman Ryan’s proposals as the starting point of a process aimed at broader engagement, which could result in substantial and lasting U.S. government fiscal consolidation. That said, we see the path to agreement as challenging because the gap between the parties remains wide. We believe there is a significant risk that Congressional negotiations could result in no agreement on a medium-term fiscal strategy until after the fall 2012 Congressional and Presidential elections. If so, the first budget proposal that could include related measures would be Budget 2014 (for the fiscal year beginning Oct. 1, 2013), and we believe a delay beyond that time is possible.
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
“Our negative outlook on our rating on the U.S. sovereign signals that we believe there is at least a one-in-three likelihood that we could lower our long-term rating on the U.S. within two years,” Mr. Swann said. “The outlook reflects our view of the increased risk that the political negotiations over when and how to address both the medium- and long-term fiscal challenges will persist until at least after national elections in 2012.”
What part of that do you not understand?
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
So thats all you could find? A statement that S&P believes that the plan to bring the congress together instead of the division we have now is a good thing (Broader engagement)? Of course its a good thing!! In no way is that statement saying that the Obama plan will bring us fiscal prosperity. Obama doesn't have a plan, hell he hasn't even had a budget for the last 2 years.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
What part of that do you not understand?
NEGATIVE OUTLOOK!!!! You do not understand what a rating is. we have been DOWNGRADED and HAVE A NEGATIVE OUTLOOK. You need to do some studying bendyboy, A negative outlook is a secondary rating it is NOT A DOWNGRADE!!!!
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
Some compromise that achieves agreement on a comprehensive budgetary consolidation program--containing deficit-reduction measures in amounts near those recently proposed, and combined with meaningful steps toward implementation by 2013--is our baseline assumption and could lead us to revise the outlook back to stable. Alternatively, the lack of such an agreement or a significant further fiscal deterioration for any reason could lead us to lower the rating.
What does the S&P say will remove the downgrade? A Compromise. Any fucking compromise. The Obama plan or the Ryan plan or something meaningful to be compromised on. We all know which party has stated a flat out refusal to compromise.

The S&P says compromise. One party says no. S&P downgrades. It's the fault of those who will not compromise.

Shall I walk you though it again?
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
NEGATIVE OUTLOOK!!!! You do not understand what a rating is. we have been DOWNGRADED and HAVE A NEGATIVE OUTLOOK. You need to do some studying bendyboy, A negative outlook is a secondary rating it is NOT A DOWNGRADE!!!!
Right, and what would remove that negative outlook Semantics Boy?

A Compromise. Just like the S&P said.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
We got downgraded out of fears that our Congress won't get their job done.
No we got a negative outlook because of that. the downgrade is a completely separate thing attached to the downgrade. Read the full text. The downgrade was because of what I said it was, this is irrefutable fact.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Right, and what would remove that negative outlook Semantics Boy?

A Compromise. Just like the S&P said.
Yep we would still be rated AA+ but with a positive outlook instead of Negative. In other words, the DOWNGRADE WOULD STILL BE THERE!!!

It isn't semantics, downgrade and negative outlook are two different things.
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — The following is the text of Standard & Poor’s release of its decision to downgrade the ratings outlook on the U.S. debt: See story on S&P's move.

Our ratings on the U.S. rest on its high-income, highly diversified, and flexible economy. It is backed by a strong track record of prudent and credible monetary policy, evidenced to us by its ability to support growth while containing inflationary pressures. The ratings also reflect our view of the unique advantages stemming from the dollar’s preeminent place among world currencies.
“Although we believe these strengths currently outweigh what we consider to be the U.S.’s meaningful economic and fiscal risks and large external debtor position, we now believe that they might not fully offset the credit risks over the next two years at the ‘AAA’ level,” said Standard & Poor’s credit analyst Nikola G. Swann.
“More than two years after the beginning of the recent crisis, U.S. policymakers have still not agreed on how to reverse recent fiscal deterioration or address longer-term fiscal pressures,” Mr. Swann added.
In 2003-2008, the U.S.’s general (total) government deficit fluctuated between 2% and 5% of GDP. Already noticeably larger than that of most ‘AAA’ rated sovereigns, it ballooned to more than 11% in 2009 and has yet to recover.
On April 13, President Barack Obama laid out his Administration’s medium-term fiscal consolidation plan, aimed at reducing the cumulative unified federal deficit by US$4 trillion in 12 years or less. A key component of the Administration’s strategy is to work with Congressional leaders over the next two months to develop a commonly agreed upon program to reach this target. The President’s proposals envision reducing the deficit via both spending cuts and revenue increases.
Key members in the U.S. House of Representatives have also advocated fiscal tightening of a similar magnitude, US$4.4 trillion, during the coming 10 years, but via different methods. House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan’s plan seeks to balance the federal budget by 2040, in part by cutting non-defense spending. The plan also includes significantly reducing the scope of Medicare and Medicaid, while bringing top individual and corporate tax rates lower than those under the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts.
We view President Obama’s and Congressman Ryan’s proposals as the starting point of a process aimed at broader engagement, which could result in substantial and lasting U.S. government fiscal consolidation. That said, we see the path to agreement as challenging because the gap between the parties remains wide. We believe there is a significant risk that Congressional negotiations could result in no agreement on a medium-term fiscal strategy until after the fall 2012 Congressional and Presidential elections. If so, the first budget proposal that could include related measures would be Budget 2014 (for the fiscal year beginning Oct. 1, 2013), and we believe a delay beyond that time is possible.
Standard & Poor’s takes no position on the mix of spending and revenue measures the Congress and the Administration might conclude are appropriate.
But for any plan to be credible, we believe that it would need to secure support from a cross-section of leaders in both political parties. If U.S. policymakers do agree on a fiscal consolidation strategy, we believe the experience of other countries highlights that implementation could take time. It could also generate significant political controversy, not just within Congress or between Congress and the Administration, but throughout the country. We therefore think that, assuming an agreement between Congress and the President, there is a reasonable chance that it would still take a number of years before the government reaches a fiscal position that stabilizes its debt burden. In addition, even if such measures are eventually put in place, the initiating policymakers or subsequently elected ones could decide to at least partially reverse fiscal consolidation.
In our baseline macroeconomic scenario of near 3% annual real growth, we expect the general government deficit to decline gradually but remain slightly higher than 6% of GDP in 2013. As a result, net general government debt would reach 84% of GDP by 2013. In our macroeconomic forecast’s optimistic scenario (assuming near 4% annual real growth), the fiscal deficit would fall to 4.6% of GDP by 2013, but the U.S.’s net general government debt would still rise to almost 80% of GDP by 2013. In our pessimistic scenario (a mild, one-year double-dip recession in 2012), the deficit would be 9.1%, while net debt would surpass 90% by 2013. Even in our optimistic scenario, we believe the U.S.’s fiscal profile would be less robust than those of other ‘AAA’ rated sovereigns by 2013. (For all of the assumptions underpinning our three forecast scenarios, see “U.S. Risks To The Forecast: Oil We Have to Fear Is...,” March 15, 2011, RatingsDirect.
“Our negative outlook on our rating on the U.S. sovereign signals that we believe there is at least a one-in-three likelihood that we could lower our long-term rating on the U.S. within two years,” Mr. Swann said. “The outlook reflects our view of the increased risk that the political negotiations over when and how to address both the medium- and long-term fiscal challenges will persist until at least after national elections in 2012.”
Some compromise that achieves agreement on a comprehensive budgetary consolidation program--containing deficit-reduction measures in amounts near those recently proposed, and combined with meaningful steps toward implementation by 2013--is our baseline assumption and could lead us to revise the outlook back to stable. Alternatively, the lack of such an agreement or a significant further fiscal deterioration for any reason could lead us to lower the rating.
 

Banditt

Well-Known Member
No we got a negative outlook becasue of that. the downgrade is a completely separate thing attached to the downgrade. Read the full text. The downgrade was because of what I said it was, this is irrefutable fact.
Since when do democrats let the facts get in the way of their arguments?
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Why did S&P downgrade the USA? Lets ask them....



Note that they didn't say anything about the tea party and nothing about default.
okay.
They think that raising the ceiling was a bad idea. The opposite of what some think.
Now you're putting words in their mouth. They didn't want us not to raise the debt ceiling, they want us to stabalize our debt at 73% of GDP by the end of the next decade which requires at least 4 Trillion in cuts; That makes sense, to an extent, until you remember that our fiscal problems are over the long term and not over the short or medium term. Krugman, conveniently has done the math:
Amid all the debt hysteria, it’s worth taking a look at the actual arithmetic here — because what this arithmetic says is that the size of the deficit in the next year or two hardly matters for the US fiscal position — and in fact the size over the next decade is barely significant.

Start with interest rates. What matters for debt sustainability is the real interest rate, since what matters is keeping real debt, not nominal debt, from growing. (World War II debt never got paid off, it just eroded in real terms to the point where it was trivial). As of yesterday, the US government could lock in 30-year bonds at a real interest rate of 1.25%. That means that a trillion dollars in extra debt would mean $12.5 billion a year in additional real interest payments.

Meanwhile, the CBO estimates potential real GDP in 2021 at about $18 trillion in 2005 dollars, or around $19 trillion in 2011 dollars.

Put these together, and they say that an extra trillion in borrowing adds something like 0.07% of GDP in future debt service costs. Yes, that zero belongs there. The $4 trillion S&P said it needed to see clocks in at less than 0.3% of GDP.

These are not, to say the least, make or break numbers. So what are we talking about here?

America does have a long-run fiscal problem, driven by the combination of rising health costs, an aging population, and the unwillingness to raise taxes to pay for the programs we already have. If we don’t come to grips with that problem, bad things will happen. But what happens to the deficit in the medium term is almost irrelevant to the question of whether our long-run finances will get under control.

Yet S&P (and others) obsess about those medium-term numbers, without ever explaining why. Maybe they think there’s some critical level of debt — but they don’t know that. Maybe they think that fiscal austerity over the next decade will somehow guarantee good behavior further out — but that didn’t work in the 1990s. Or maybe they’re just pulling stuff out of regions I can’t mention in the Times.

The point is that while S&P may try to give the impression that it’s just doing the math (incompetently, too!), the math doesn’t at all support its position.
So, I'll take it a step further and say that if 4 Trillion was the benchmark to show effective compromise, it's quite clear the only roadblock to said compromise was the Tea Party; Therefore, the Tea Party is the reason a "grand bargain" didn't happen and it is absolutely fair to put the blame on them.
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
Work with.....

Compromise.......

Negotiate...........

Peppered with the fact that people in Washington refuse to compromise and as long as they do, look out for trouble. The people who have vowed to destroy Obama are responsible for this. They refuse to compromise and will fight anyone who does. That is a problem in the adult world.
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
The S&P clearly says they would have not done this had the Grand Bargain been agreed to. Blame a Tea Bagger.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Work with.....

Compromise.......

Negotiate...........

Peppered with the fact that people in Washington refuse to compromise and as long as they do, look out for trouble. The people who have vowed to destroy Obama are responsible for this. They refuse to compromise and will fight anyone who does. That is a problem in the adult world.
Agree 110%, but its not the cause of the downgrade, its only the cause of the negative outlook. The Congress needs to work together to get this done. That doesn't mean we do what Obama wants.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
The S&P clearly says they would have not done this had the Grand Bargain been agreed to. Blame a Tea Bagger.
Did what? Issue a negative outlook, yes correct. Issue the downgrade? No incorrect it has already been quoted why they issued the downgrade. Irrefutable fact.
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
No, it means you compromise. Had Obama got his revenue increase in exchange to even more cuts than the GOP got, this would have been averted.

So the Tea Party's refusal to compromise not only cost us a rating ding, it cost them trillions in cuts they had sought all for the sake of the richest 1% of Americans who are all on vacation right now.

That's reality.
 
Top